WC Play So Far

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by onetouchfutbol on Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:26 pm

I felt the final game had both vicious fouls and flops. That's why Lalas referred to it as ugly in my opionion. I wouldn't call it a "thugfest" though... I didn't see anything as intentional as the head butt a few years ago.

Fortunately, the best team won the tourney... If they had to miss calls, they did call it both ways. In the end, the Netherlands missed their chances while Spain converted once...

----------------------------------------

Is anyone up for going to Brazil in 2014? I'm going to try to go...

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:46 pm

even Sepp Blatter came as close as he could to condemning the Dutch performance When he said "the team that came to play Football" won.

Sorry, you can try and defend the Dutch if you want. but their performance will go down in history as possibly the biggest disgrace to the game of all time. it's the new standard.

they played a crap strategy. just awful.


first we had total football, then clockwork orange..


Now crapwork Orange

I hope they don't qualify for another dozen years. My hate for what they did just grows.

My disgust at Webb for not sending them off is almost as great.


Last edited by Geezaldinho on Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by mattywizz on Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:55 pm

Geezer, I like your new avatar. It almost makes it look like one soccer player is trying to kick another player right through the heart. It must me one of those pictures where taken at a certain angle it is completely out of context.

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:04 pm

mattywizz wrote:Geezer, I like your new avatar. It almost makes it look like one soccer player is trying to kick another player right through the heart. It must me one of those pictures where taken at a certain angle it is completely out of context.

what context do you think is more appropriate?



I took it out of the clip I had up earlier but is not available to link to. I have saved it. if you like, I can send the clip to you to pick a better one.

trying to kick a player through the heart is about right to me.

Pretty much sums up what the Dutch were all about.

Orange juice is now Freedom Juice in my house.

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by onetouchfutbol on Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:22 pm

I'm not defending the Dutch side, however, there was clearly flopping on both sides. What about the play when Xavi kicked the Dutch player in the back of the leg and fell forward? Xavi was clearly the player who drew the contact as the commentators noted. If Xavi didn't fall, there would have been two Spaniards on the ground instead of three. Then the ref might call the correct foul... I absolutely agree that the video above was a red card.

There were clearly fouls that weren't called that should have been called in the game. However, if the players stopped embelishing, it would make it easier for the refs to call the real fouls.


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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by DaTruRochin on Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:56 pm

When I saw that De Jong kick I instantly flashed back to this;


Oh wait, you wanted video... OH OK, if I must...


Simultaneously one of my best/worst memories from childhood...


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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:18 pm

onetouchfutbol wrote:I'm not defending the Dutch side, however, there was clearly flopping on both sides. What about the play when Xavi kicked the Dutch player in the back of the leg and fell forward? Xavi was clearly the player who drew the contact as the commentators noted. If Xavi didn't fall, there would have been two Spaniards on the ground instead of three. Then the ref might call the correct foul... I absolutely agree that the video above was a red card.

There were clearly fouls that weren't called that should have been called in the game. However, if the players stopped embelishing, it would make it easier for the refs to call the real fouls.


maybe you didn't glance to the left. The Netherlands greatest player of all time says

"Regrettably, sadly, they played very dirty. So much so that they should have been down to nine immediately, then they made two [such] ugly and hard tackles that even I felt the damage," he said. "This ugly, vulgar, hard, hermetic, hardly eye-catching, hardly football style, yes it served the Dutch to unsettle Spain. If with this they got satisfaction, fine, but they ended up losing. They were playing anti-football." Cruyff has also joined in with the criticism of Webb, claiming he should have been harder on the Dutch. "A World Cup final deserves great refereeing and, above all, deserves a referee who dares to do everything it means to be a judge." ~ Johan Cruyff

I'm with him, even though he's not too popular in his homeland right now and I have no idea what he meant by hermetic.

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by PurplePrideTrumpet on Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:57 pm

Now Webb had some bad misses, especially the kick by De Jong. But when a team comes out the way the Dutch did, where they aim to kick the other team instead of the ball, a referee is almost in a lose-lose situation. If he hands out cards and sends people off (the way I think Webb should have) he'll be accused of ruining the World Cup Final (because there's no way a team could ruin a game Rolling Eyes). If he lets them play he runs the risk of completely losing control and appearing arbitrary and inconsistent in his calls, the way it got in the second half of the game. I wish he had gone with the former. It may eventually have forced the Dutch into playing actual football.

Like I said before about Heitinga, so what if a player thinks a yellow is soft? If the referee is cautioning something for both teams the players need to adjust. The referee needs to stick to his guns and keep penalizing what he sees until the players get the message.

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:15 pm

If Webb had sent the first guy off around minute 15 like he should have, the rest of that abomination might not have happened at all. The Dutch would have been too knackered from chasing to risk going down another man.

The "ref ruining the game" argument is stupid. By. Not making the calls he not only sanctioned the idiocy, he allowed the World to think you might possibly stay in a game by playing that way.

The message should have been loud and clear that it is a path to suicide to use those tactics.

A very similar approach to the game happened in the late 80's and early 90's.

Players were hacked to pieces, careers of the best and most creative players were cut short, and play turned ugly. So refs clamped down and sent people off. That's where the whole fair play movement started. I guess FIFA forgot.


Last edited by Geezaldinho on Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by DaTruRochin on Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:24 pm

The thing is De Jong and Van Bommel had been playing like that the ENTIRE cup... And pretty much every game before that... It seems to me like a message that should have not had to wait all the way until the Final before being sent. Then again if it had been, the Dutch likely wouldn't have made it to the final...

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:06 am

NBA refs would have been placing bets on who could send him off the quickest... Razz

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by onetouchfutbol on Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:22 pm

I'd like to see the refs clamp down on the physical plays, but, they should clamp down on the flopping too. Yellows for flops and embelished dives and reds for cleats to the chest. That would have kept the game more technical and prettier to watch.

When you see three Spanish players go down just above the top of the 18 and two are legitimate fouls and one guy flops, it's just a shame. The flopper takes away from the credibility of the real fouls and it doesn't make the ref's job an easier. In that case, Xavi deserved a yellow card. It pains me to say that because he's an amazing player and had one of the most impressive tourneys of anyone out there... Give the Netherlands the indirect free kick, but, also give Xavi a card as well. That would be fair...

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by DaTruRochin on Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:26 am

Yeah, unfortunately in the heat of the game determining what is a flop and what is a foul is rather difficult. I mean unless you want to give retroactive cards or have them come in from the booth, thats hard to accomplish. On top of that that's hard to impose universally across the leagues of the world having all the technology and whatnot to track fouls, etc. Those decisive WC slow-mo cams aren't everywhere, and really they make the easiest way of determining gamesmanship vs. a foul. Now obviously if someone is getting tapped in the shin and grabbing their face is one thing, but differentiating an embellished foul from legitimate contact is a very very difficult determination to make.

It's been said repeatedly but the reason they flop is because the players don't trust the referees to make the right call. And honestly with the leeway that Holland was given throughout the cup, I don't blame players for doing so to not only re-gain a tactical advantage but also to dissuade that potentially career altering nasty tackle. I mean the players aren't being paid as much as you would think for Cup appearances. All it will take is one nasty, gruesome injury and you will see the top players not wanting to play in the world event. I mean can you see Man U risking Rooney or Barca risking Messi with all the money invested in their development?

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by onetouchfutbol on Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:48 am

Hmmm...well Rochin not trusting the refs to make the right call is no excuse to flop whatsoever. It's a fast game, and it's very tough to officiate. But, there are enough legitimate fouls in a game that it's not necessary to embellish. I didn't see the German team flopping much..if at all, and in the end, they just lost a game that they deserved to lose by not playing as aggressive. Spain has more than enough technical skill that they don't need to flop. When I see players from the best teams flopping, it irks me...as much or more than physical play.

As the commentators noted, one of the Netherlands players (It was either Robin or Schneider, I've forgotten which) easily could have flopped to try to draw the direct kick during a one on one break away with the goalie. He chose not to and played with dignity.

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by DaTruRochin on Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:06 am

Haha, I'm not making it up, those are the words of Steve Macnamanan, and with some of the officiating in the cup, you can hardly blame them.

It was probably Robben, but the only reason they even noted it was he flailed to the ground every other time he was touched...

I just don't see a good way that they can curb flopping at game speed, I mean an official CAN card someone if he spots it, but its hard to determine. Just complaining about it happening and appeasing to the ethics/sportsmanship of players isn't going to do anything as long as you can gain a tactical advantage while doing so.

The only way I see curbing it is punishing repeat offenders whether that means through suspension, fines, etc. I don't see that kind of progressive action coming any time soon...

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Stonehouse on Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:21 pm

Well, let's think about it this way... in the NFL, there are, what, seven officials on the field at all times?

And three in basketball?

And four in baseball (five in the playoffs)?

Why is it that soccer only has one official with two line judges that really don't do much other than call offsides?

I realize there are potential problems with one official calling things tight and the other calling things loose, but really... those things ultimately work themselves out in football and basketball.

I think if FIFA wants to get real with fixing officiating, just sticking an extra person behind the goal isn't really going to solve the problem.

Would an extra official or two on the field help things? Maybe... just maybe.

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by DaTruRochin on Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:00 pm

there will definitely be some ego bruising in the process, but it's readily apparent that SOMETHING has to give... I don't know how 2 center refs would work, or if it would require one center ref and then a few "eyes in the sky" so to speak who communicated with the center guy. More refs involved does have the potential for more things being called correctly, or conversely just another human capable of missing the call. I think its time they start exploring how technology can help the officials make the correct calls, and do it in a way that doesn't add length/ruin the flow of the game. I know the MLS is willing to be a testing ground, and I'm sure others will as well.... Now if only we can get that Blatter relic off his throne...

And the line judges are able to spot fouls/transgressions in their lines of sight and alert the center official (hence the head pieces they all wear) oh yeah call things out of bounds... just for the record...

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by onetouchfutbol on Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:30 pm

I'd be for more refs and some goal line technology. Calling offsides is always going to be subjective, and you're right calling flopping is tough at game speed. However, the refs are supposed to be in top shape with quick eyes. It's their job.

You can't compare football to other sports; it's apples and oranges. Plus the idea that having more refs and technology in sports means better calls or fairness isn't always true either. Case in point: Seahawks vs. Steelers Superbowl. Hurl. Embarassed

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by PurplePrideTrumpet on Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:35 pm

Somebody tried two center referees in some matches a few years back but FIFA decided not to adopt it. The main complaint from the teams was that one referee's standards were different from the other's, so that some contact was being called a foul while the same kind of challenge by the other team was ignored.

I think given the amount of training referees at the advanced levels receive, and given some of the performances in the World Cup, some league may be willing to try this again.

This, incidentally, is one of the complaints about having two referees in hockey, although that system is firmly in place.

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by PurplePrideTrumpet on Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:37 pm

Adios, Diego:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hUvSMgwoA_vp93ZZWbLdeIqT3HWA

The USSF hasn't made a decision on Bradley yet, but now that Diego's available I'd watch out... Razz

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:51 pm

PurplePrideTrumpet wrote:Adios, Diego:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hUvSMgwoA_vp93ZZWbLdeIqT3HWA

The USSF hasn't made a decision on Bradley yet, but now that Diego's available I'd watch out... Razz


6 months too late...

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by DaTruRochin on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:23 pm

I wonder if he left the tags on his suits...

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:42 pm

The USA "Bob must go" crowd are rank amateurs. This is how it's done.

Maradona, if you recall, was offered another 4 years by AFA president Julio Grondona (also next in line to be head of FIFA), with impossible conditions sure to anger him. among them was that he couldn't have his long time crony Oscar Rugerri as an assistant.

He, of course refused and quit, and a "you can't quit me, i'm fired" round ensued. (probably just what Grondona wanted)

Friday, the #2 in the AFA, former coach Carlos Bilardo said the way was open for Maradona to return, sending shivers up the spines of folks already speculating on a new coach.

Today Ruggeri is quoted on TV as saying the 76 yr. old Grondona threatened to shoot him in the leg and Grondona's daughter would stab him.

http://momento24.com/en/2010/08/02/ruggeri-grondona-told-maradona-that-he-was-going-to-shoot-me/


Maradona will be on the same TV show where this all went down, next.

Is this fun or what?

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No More World Cup draws?

Post by Geezaldinho on Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:43 am

Sepp says FIFA will consider eliminating draws from the Group stage. Games will be 90 minute and then PK's, or sudden death OT and then PK's.


http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/5463515/fifa-considers-doing-away-draws-world-cup?campaign=rss&source=twitter&ex_cid=Twitter_espn_5463515

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Re: WC Play So Far

Post by Stonehouse on Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:16 am

I could see that, though I would maybe prefer it if they did it hockey-style in that the team that loses a PK would still get a point but the winning team gets the full three. Seems kind of silly to punish a team so harshly in the group stage for playing even soccer for 120 minutes and then losing in what amounts to a crap shoot.

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