Notes from the Tournament Final

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Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by up7587 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:21 pm

Quick impressions:
The Orleans Arena had plenty of empty seats. Suspect the economy affected attendance.

Gonzaga had 90% of the fans at the game. SMC had a section plus some, and there were a smattering of non-partisans (UP, BYU, LMU are who I saw). Gonzaga fans do a great job of supporting their team.

GU players stayed on the court for the anthem, Gaels did not. Point to GU.

Are the Zags the last team in the WCC with traditional cheerleaders? They do the same lifts and spins, and the Zag fans clap every time. And what's with the cue cards? I am sure most GU alums can spell Gonzaga without them. On the other hand, the St. Mary's Spirit Squad did dance routines with a lot a shake and jiggle, that may not go over well in Spokane. During one of the SMC dance routines, the GU band lead a clapping cheer to drown out the music; seemed bush league to me.

Both teams' fans were very rational and even-tempered about the officiating. Rolling Eyes Both sides got upset about various calls, but I never saw anything egregious all night. The older Zag fans were pretty nice. I never really saw very many SMC fans except at the game. The younger GU fans had to do their yelling in the concourse and casino; that gets old. But the older GU fan who twice expressed the desire that a Zag player step on Dellavedova and injure him when he was on the floor took the cake.

The game was big boy basketball; the refs let them play physical all night. Lots of pushing in the key.

Dellavedova willed SMC to win that game. SMC continuosly isolated him on Sacre, and until the very end he consistently got into the key and scored. I did feel SMC blew an opportunity to end in regulation, when they forced the inbounds pass to Dellavedova, who got trapped in the corner for a held ball. Page was wide open on the other side, and could have run off most of the remaining time before they could foul him. That play allowed GU a last chance for a three to tie it, which Harris made. Plus, Dellavedova stifled Pangos the entire game, holding him to seven points, and keeping him from ever getting comfortable shooting.

I think the tournament format change to accomodate BYU, i.e. a Sunday off between semi and final games, benefitted SMC. They played their starters more minutes than Gonzaga did, and the extra day of rest probably helped them. SMC only got 5 points off the bench, while GU got 18, including 14 from Dower.

After the game, all the Gaels players gathered at center court to celebrate, and someone started handing out t-shirts. A few broke away to line up for the hand shake, but most did not. Another classless act by the Gaels. Then they seemed to be mugging (thugging?) it up for the cameras, at which point I left the arena.

All in all an exciting game, which should have reflected well on the WCC to the ESPN audience. So, it is on the March Madness. How many bids will the league get? Two for sure. But that's fodder for another topic.


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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:08 pm

I thought that was a TERRIBLE foul call against GU when Pangos(?) and Dellavedova were both going for a loose ball towards the end of overtime. I don't understand how in the world that was a foul. Neither team had possession, and both players slammed into each other. Yet the ref arbitrarily called a foul against the Gonzaga player, putting Dellavedova on the line. The score was tied at that point, and that is what put Saint Mary's over the top. Too bad.

Maybe Saint Mary's left the court for the anthem because most of the team is from Australia.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by up7587 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 am

That play was right in front of me. Dellavedova had a straight shot at the ball, and Pangos was coming in at an angle. He was a hair late. Looked like a good call to me.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:18 am

If what you describe is legally a foul, and the ref made the right call, then I just fundamentally disagree with the rule. In a loose ball situation, a foul call should not depend upon who is coming at what arbitrary angle vs. who has a "straight shot." That could mean anything to anyone, depending upon where you are standing on the court. So, rather than just going all out for the ball, Pangos was supposed to be paying attention to what angle Dellavedova was approaching at, and then, upon determining that Dellavedova was the one with the "straight shot," he should have stopped trying to get to ball? Ridiculous. If Pangos had stopped going for that loose ball it would have been a bad play on his part. I don't think the rules should set up catch-22 situations like that. And for the outcome of the game to hinge on that kind of call is unacceptable.

I feel similarly about a lot of play in the paint. Why does a foul have to be called every time two players come into contact with each other? Isn't it ever possible that neither one has done anything illegal? I think the rules on fouls should be loosened up, considerably.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by ShipstadPilot11 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:35 am

Could the foul have been called on Pangos because Delly had just touched the ball when he hit him? He may not have had possession, but he did beat Pangos to the ball, that seems like the only fair way to determine who is the fouler and who is the fouled in that situation (if you insist on calling a foul).

A couple quotes from GU fans about the call:
That foul on Pangos when it was tied in OT against Dellavedova was awful, but otherwise I do agree that the officiating was decent enough. Gonzaga had their chances to win this game and couldn't get it done.
It was tough I just can't see the justification for it going one way or the other. It's a loose ball, no players have position and they are both going for the ball and both collide with each other. I've seen no foul called on that type of play plenty of times.

But like I said I don't want make it sound like I'm blaming the loss on that call because I'm not. It was just a call that I disagreed with.
I agree this was the best officiated game in a long time. Nothing for either side to complain about. They let the players decide the game
My opinion was it was well officiated. Wasn't happy with the foul disparity in the 2nd half, but the mismatches probably were a factor.

Would have liked a no-call on that Pangos-Delly play, but in all fairness Delly had 2 hands on the ball (not control though) and Pangos had none, looking at the replay.

I just wish WCC officiating was like this all season. Like night and day in comparison.
Glad to see that nobody is too riled up about the officiating. The Delly/Pangos collision was an unfortunate event to happen at such a critical juncture but I really think the fact that Delly was there first impacted the call. That was a fun game to watch and although I was rooting for the Gaels, I was VERY happy when Harris hit the 3 to send it to OT. Link to GU thread.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:44 am

I suspect there were empty seats because the tourney is too long with the format. Wednesday to Tuesday is too long to be in Vegas. It is no longer just a long weekend.

I had to make a choice between that and a real vacation instead of just rationalizing a couple days away from home.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by ShipstadPilot11 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:08 am

Not only was it a Monday at the end of a long tournament, but SMC just doesn't seem to have the fanbase to help fill that place up. Besides, every fan from another school that left without selling their ticket guaranteed an empty seat, regardless of whether there was demand for it.

The bottom line is that only GU/BYU have the forces to fill that place up. The GU vs BYU game on Saturday drove aftermarket ticket prices up to about $90-110 per ticket. Yesterday, tickets were only about $60 for the championship.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by oldtimer on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:31 am

NoPoNeighbor wrote:If what you describe is legally a foul, and the ref made the right call, then I just fundamentally disagree with the rule. In a loose ball situation, a foul call should not depend upon who is coming at what arbitrary angle vs. who has a "straight shot." That could mean anything to anyone, depending upon where you are standing on the court. So, rather than just going all out for the ball, Pangos was supposed to be paying attention to what angle Dellavedova was approaching at, and then, upon determining that Dellavedova was the one with the "straight shot," he should have stopped trying to get to ball? Ridiculous. If Pangos had stopped going for that loose ball it would have been a bad play on his part. I don't think the rules should set up catch-22 situations like that. And for the outcome of the game to hinge on that kind of call is unacceptable.

I feel similarly about a lot of play in the paint. Why does a foul have to be called every time two players come into contact with each other? Isn't it ever possible that neither one has done anything illegal? I think the rules on fouls should be loosened up, considerably.


I think the term is displacement. Pangos had the weak angle and displaced the opponent from his position. With that said the other factor considered from an officials perspective is what happened to the ball. In this case if i remember right Delly had at least a hand on the ball and "could have" secured the possession. The contact prevented the better positioned player from retaining possession thus the foul.
Displacement is also used often in the low post area. Defender leaning on the offensive player, both fighting for position. Most calls arent made unless the entry pass is made and then is determined a foul or not by whether the offensive player is displaced from receiving said pass. If you watch a lot of games you will see that more often than not the call isnt made if the ball isnt entered which leads me to believe that the call is predicated not as much on the contact but the offensive players ability to receive the pass.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by blacksheep on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:43 am

ShipstadPilot11 wrote:
The bottom line is that only GU/BYU have the forces to fill that place up. The GU vs BYU game on Saturday drove aftermarket ticket prices up to about $90-110 per ticket. Yesterday, tickets were only about $60 for the championship.

I only went to the Pilot games. I sold the remainder of my tickets for close to what the book cost me in the first place.

A note from the BYU/GU game is that GU fans must love their team more that BYU fans. BYU fans just scowled and walked off when I said my tickets were $110 each. GU fans opened up their wallets. Unfortunately, since I wasn't in Vegas last night I had to sell my championship tickets to a scalper for $35 each. Heard he got $70.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by up7587 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:44 pm

PurpleGeezer wrote:I suspect there were empty seats because the tourney is too long with the format. Wednesday to Tuesday is too long to be in Vegas. It is no longer just a long weekend.

I had to make a choice between that and a real vacation instead of just rationalizing a couple days away from home.
The "too long" only applies to us fans of lowly teams. The bulk of the GU fans didn't arrive until Friday. I agree that the extra days to allow a play-in game and a Sunday off is unfortunate. I wonder if the Big 12 will be as accommodating to BYU when they join it.


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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by up7587 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:48 pm

blacksheep wrote:
ShipstadPilot11 wrote:
The bottom line is that only GU/BYU have the forces to fill that place up. The GU vs BYU game on Saturday drove aftermarket ticket prices up to about $90-110 per ticket. Yesterday, tickets were only about $60 for the championship.

I only went to the Pilot games. I sold the remainder of my tickets for close to what the book cost me in the first place.

A note from the BYU/GU game is that GU fans must love their team more that BYU fans. BYU fans just scowled and walked off when I said my tickets were $110 each. GU fans opened up their wallets. Unfortunately, since I wasn't in Vegas last night I had to sell my championship tickets to a scalper for $35 each. Heard he got $70.
I have talked to GU fans in Vegas who can't get tickets in Spokane, so the tourney is their only chance to see their team live. I suspect that given the size of the Marriot Center, it is not so hard to get a ticket in Provo.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by DoubleDipper on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:12 pm

up7587 wrote:
PurpleGeezer wrote:I suspect there were empty seats because the tourney is too long with the format. Wednesday to Tuesday is too long to be in Vegas. It is no longer just a long weekend.
The "too long" only applies to us fans of lowly teams. The bulk of the GU fans didn't arrive until Friday.
Back from 7 nights and 6 days in Las Vegas and agree with up7587 that it depends upon one's perspective whether 6 days is too long. Didn't really see any GU fans until Friday, and then that's about all we saw!!! tongue

The "dead" day on Sunday is NOT good for the average fan, but for me it just meant 27 holes of golf. I doubt we can expect any changes in Sunday's off for another couple of years when the WCC once again realigns. Rolling Eyes

I believe up7587 was in Las Vegas for 5 days and nights, but as you can see from the photo of him while on the flight back to Portland, it can take a toll on you:

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by DoubleDipper on Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:32 pm

up7587 wrote:Are the Zags the last team in the WCC with traditional cheerleaders?
Well, I wouldn't consider them the last, as BYU was doing lifts, etc.
But I do think GU was the BEST because their routines and lifts were more innovative and numerous

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by DoubleDipper on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:10 pm

Continuing in the vein of Best of the WCC Tournament (besides the basketball):

The best fans (as voted by Rev) were the Pilots fans. Not because of their numbers (that would go to GU), but because they came from afar and stayed late even though it was fairly certain their teams would not stay late with them.


The best mascot: In a no-doubter, Cosmo the Cougar from BYU. Man, did Cosmo have the moves on the dance floor!! Wally may look strong, but the cougar with the headband was the real deal.


The best T-shirt: There was a multitude of shirt to choose from, but most just boasted team names. The shirt that impressed me the most was worn by a BYU fan.


Finally, the best “Spirit Team” (not traditional cheer): USF. This one was really easy, as they were by far the best dancers.


I have more pictures from Las Vegas, but as they say, "What happens in Las Vegas..............."

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by dholcombe on Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:13 am

I'm really not a fan of the play in game adding a day. If you end up 9th...so be it, stay home. I understand they want to include EVERYONE every year, but if we ever finished ninth I'd be OK with not being in the tournament. It's highly unlikely the 7/8 teams will ever win the tourney in any case and even more unlikely 9th will with an additional game. It just drags down the RPI's of everyone a teensy bit more by having an extra game between the two worst teams. Unlikely to make a difference by the time it percolates to the top, but really...I'd rather have a shorter tournament with just 8 teams.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:24 pm

the year we won the tournament, Pepperdine was the lowest seed and had 7 players they could put on the floor. one of them got hurt at the half. Their coach had quit/got fired before the tournament.

They still knocked out #1 seed Santa Clara with Steve Nash. Most amazing game i have seen. I bought a round for the Pepp coaches.

that's not possible any more under the stepped seeding system.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by PilotNut on Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:55 pm

PurpleGeezer wrote:the year we won the tournament, Pepperdine was the lowest seed and had 7 players they could put on the floor. one of them got hurt at the half. Their coach had quit/got fired before the tournament.

They still knocked out #1 seed Santa Clara with Steve Nash. Most amazing game i have seen. I bought a round for the Pepp coaches.

that's not possible any more under the stepped seeding system.

Not to mention that the game was being played on SCU's home floor, with throngs of their fans in attendance. I agree that it was one of the most amazing sporting events I have ever witnessed... you could see the 6 remaining players and a remaining assistant coach willing themselves to the victory. Basketball

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:02 pm

PilotNut wrote:

Not to mention that the game was being played on SCU's home floor, with throngs of their fans in attendance. I agree that it was one of the most amazing sporting events I have ever witnessed... you could see the 6 remaining players and a remaining assistant coach willing themselves to the victory. Basketball

As I recall it, everyone not a SCU fan was willing them to victory as well. It was early enough in the tournament that other team's fans hadn't lost interest.

It was actually pretty loud for Pepperdine even though it was at Toso. ( remember the bubble?)

I remember Steve Nash was pretty classy after the loss. He applauded the fans, then made a special point of congratulating all the Pepperdine players at length.

His last game made me a fan of his.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by PilotNut on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:10 pm

A note to add to this thread, re: USF's Head Coach, Rex Walters. I sat behind the USF bench for their game vs. SMC, and this was the first time I had sat close enough to actually hear him... and I was really disappointed.

I knew that Coach Walters talked a lot (to his players, refs), as you can see that from a distance... but when actually hearing what he was saying... my goodness he swears. And not just a little. A lot. Shocked

When RW was called for the technical foul, even as a neutral fan, I stood and applauded (with the SMC fans who were also behind the USF bench), as it was way overdue. I was disgusted & tired of hearing him cuss at his bench and assistant coaches... Thankfully, he did quiet down somewhat after receiving the T.

I am so glad that we have a Coach that doesn't resort to the F word and S word in every sentence!

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by ShipstadPilot11 on Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:15 pm

PilotNut wrote:A note to add to this thread, re: USF's Head Coach, Rex Walters. I sat behind the USF bench for their game vs. SMC, and this was the first time I had sat close enough to actually hear him... and I was really disappointed.

I knew that Coach Walters talked a lot (to his players, refs), as you can see that from a distance... but when actually hearing what he was saying... my goodness he swears. And not just a little. A lot. Shocked

When RW was called for the technical foul, even as a neutral fan, I stood and applauded (with the SMC fans who were also behind the USF bench), as it was way overdue. I was disgusted & tired of hearing him cuss at his bench and assistant coaches... Thankfully, he did quiet down somewhat after receiving the T.

I am so glad that we have a Coach that doesn't resort to the F word and S word in every sentence!
I was conflicted because I was rooting for the upset of SMC but I hate Rex. When he got the T, I was sitting in the Bellagio (thanks, Woodless!) and I applauded! I'm not surprised to hear how bad he is but I am further frustrated by him. What a classless fellow.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by DoubleDipper on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:03 pm

PilotNut wrote:When RW was called for the technical foul, even as a neutral fan, I stood and applauded (with the SMC fans who were also behind the USF bench), as it was way overdue. I was disgusted & tired of hearing him cuss at his bench and assistant coaches... Thankfully, he did quiet down somewhat after receiving the T.

I am so glad that we have a Coach that doesn't resort to the F word and S word in every sentence!
I too stood and applauded, but as you may recall, the move that got him the T was repeatedly going outside the coaches box then making a big deal out of it by hopping back when the ref warned him. My comment to the GU fan next to me was, "He's probably a good coach, but what an ass!!"

I gotta say, and it’s probably because I was a neutral observer most of the time, the refereeing was actually very good, and the fan reaction, except from BYU, was also pretty darn good for a tournament. The BYU fans either have a great sense of entitlement about the calls going their way, or there have been negative articles and blogs about the WCC refereeing and they are piling on. The BYU head coach is probably a good guy, but he’s way too quick to yell at the refs and insight the crowd. affraid

Rev questions the refs too, but at least he’s generally subtle in his comments and motions.


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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by DoubleDipper on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:17 pm

Hard to figure, with the state of today’s technology and the conference’s experience with such things, that the WCC Tournament logo on the Orleans Arena court resulted in so many slips that could have caused injuries. After the repeated slipping and sliding, they did attempt to clean it, but I think that made it even worse. The logo was gone for the Championship games on Monday, and the more permanent Orleans Arena logo was exposed.


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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by up7587 on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:16 pm

DoubleDipper wrote:The BYU head coach is probably a good guy, but he’s way too quick to yell at the refs and insight the crowd. affraid
Well, if he's insighting the crowd, that's a good thing. As long as he doesn't incite them!! Laughing

BTW, as I sat in a sea of GU fans for the final, there were some Zag fans continuosly calling for various infractions, most that were not even close to reality. Like, "he's out of bounds!" when he was in by at least 12". But others were pretty good sports about the refs.

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by DoubleDipper on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:46 pm

up7587 wrote:
DoubleDipper wrote:The BYU head coach is probably a good guy, but he’s way too quick to yell at the refs and insight the crowd. affraid
Well, if he's insighting the crowd, that's a good thing. As long as he doesn't incite them!! Laughing
Gad! And I'm usually so careful not to insight or incite the PN readers. But, I guess I deserve the ridicule after posting that picture I snapped of you on the flight home. Razz

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Re: Notes from the Tournament Final

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:33 am

DoubleDipper wrote:The logo was gone for the Championship games on Monday, and the more permanent Orleans Arena logo was exposed.

Thank goodness they removed that logo. It was getting scary every time someone ran across mid-court during the semi-finals on Saturday.

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