Recruiting needs to change...

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Recruiting needs to change...

Post by FSUfan on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:53 am

this is fine with me. I wonder if this has anything to do with her roster of close to 40 players. Razz

http://topdrawersoccer.com/component/option,com_topdrawer/Itemid,251/nid,7960/

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by SoreKnees on Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:13 am

Is this a problem that requires regulation or are there built-in incentives that lead to an appropriate timing of commitments?

It seems like there are some incentives (that the UF coach points out) for coaches not to commit too much too early in order to keep the flexibility to deal with red-shirts or late recruits.

Unless all the scholarships are already allocated, it seems like any player wanting to delay a decision could do so. After all, nothing is binding until February of the senior year when official letters of intent are signed.

So it looks to me like the only "problem" that would justify regulation is if there is a kind of prisoners' dilemma game operating, where everyone has to commit earlier than they want to because there won't be any scholarships available if they wait. Do any of you with more access to and experience with the recruiting process have insights as to whether this is in fact the case?

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by DaTruRochin on Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:21 pm

I think there is something to be said for that... Especially with "mid-level" players...

I know this isn't women's soccer per say, but haha we know they apocalypse is upon us when teams cough USC cough, hire a parent as a "custodian for the athletic department" and then 2 years later that "custodian's" son is on the basketball scholarship on a full ride because of the parent's qualification for free employee tuition... Thus allowing that scholarship to be part of the employee package, not athletic, thus essentially giving the team a 14th full scholarship... Grrrrr...

Sounds like the UF women need to set up their own developmental league, they already have enough for 2 practice squads with subs Razz

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by mattywizz on Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:53 pm

DaTruRochin wrote:I know this isn't women's soccer per say, but haha we know they apocalypse is upon us when teams cough USC cough, hire a parent as a "custodian for the athletic department" and then 2 years later that "custodian's" son is on the basketball scholarship on a full ride because of the parent's qualification for free employee tuition... Thus allowing that scholarship to be part of the employee package, not athletic, thus essentially giving the team a 14th full scholarship... Grrrrr...

Honestly, I don't really see a problem with this "package deal" as they called it on Outside The Lines. Yes, it is kind of messed up in some instances, but how do you police it? For example, when Henry Bibby was coaching USC, could he not recruit his son Mike Bibby? It is just hard to draw a line. Would you say that family member or whoever would have to be at the school greater than 5 years to allow this to happen? Count them against athletic scholarship anyway? It is kind of an odd situation that many schools have been able to use in their favor...but I am sure the NCAA will step in soon.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by Geezaldinho on Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:27 pm

If we are going to fix recruiting issues with players, lets address all the issues and not just cherry pick problems that might be to your advantage.Two things might influence how many and how soon you recruit players.

1) require that each recruit MUST get at least 1/2 scholarship. That would end stockpiling instate recruits who have no chance to play for you school just to keep them from playing for someone else. It also eliminates stockpiling players just for their grades in order to get the team GPA up.

It also puts all teams on an even playing field. Right now, for example, some state schools can offer enough incentive to out of state students to come even without offering any scholarship money. North Carolinais a good examle. They had the state legislature pass a law that declared all athletes automatically in-state, so even if they don't get scholarship money, they only have to pay in-state rates, which are orders of magnitude cheaper.


2) require that the initial scholarship offer is two years. That eliminates the "I'll just recruit them all and sort it out later" syndrome.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by DaTruRochin on Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:49 pm

mattywizz wrote: For example, when Henry Bibby was coaching USC, could he not recruit his son Mike Bibby?

Nevermind the fact that Mike Bibby and his dad aren't exactly, uh, pals.... (but yeah Henry did offer a scholly that was turned down)

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by aleppiek on Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:57 pm

This whole proposal screams of sour grapes... I honestly don't see the victim in the current system, except for that JV squad she has sitting at the end of her bench.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by SoreKnees on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:24 pm

Purplegeezer wrote:
1) require that each recruit MUST get at least 1/2 scholarship. That would end stockpiling instate recruits who have no chance to play for you school just to keep them from playing for someone else. It also eliminates stockpiling players just for their grades in order to get the team GPA up.

It also puts all teams on an even playing field. Right now, for example, some state schools can offer enough incentive to out of state students to come even without offering any scholarship money. North Carolinais a good examle. They had the state legislature pass a law that declared all athletes automatically in-state, so even if they don't get scholarship money, they only have to pay in-state rates, which are orders of magnitude cheaper.

From what I've heard, UP gets some soccer players in on non-need-based academic scholarships that could be argued to have similar issues. For example, a school that provides only need-based (and athletic) aid would be at a recruiting disadvantage vis-a-vis Portland if the latter is able to extend its financial support of athletes by putting qualified athletes with no need onto academic scholarships.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by Geezaldinho on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:37 pm

You can't offer any academic aid to an athlete that you don't offer to a non athlete if you do, it's athletic aid, and cuts into your athletic schlarship total.

If an athlete can make it on just academic aid in competition with non atletes, more power to them.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by SoreKnees on Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:29 pm

But that still presumes that the school offers non-need-based academic "merit" aid at all. Stanford, for example, offers only two kinds of aid: athletic scholarships and need-based aid. A soccer player with financial need can be supported outside the athletic department's allocation of scholarships, but not someone with high academic credentials but no calculated need. Portland (and probably most other schools) could provide non-athletic aid to such a student through the academic merit channel.

Given the incredible classes they have recruited for 2009 and 2010, Stanford is obviously managing to attract top soccer players despite this disadvantage, but it is a disadvantage.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by Geezaldinho on Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:07 pm

Well, no.

Stanford does offer merit based scholarships independent of need.
Look here

I'm pretty sure that's the case for every institution that values scholarship.

Stanford actually has an advantage the UP doesn't have . They can offer a full scholarship to any student who meets admissions standards who's family's income falls under $60K. That will probably be increased in the next year or two. (There has been a little glitch in the Stanford plan because they bought a 100 million stadium and can't service the debt right now because no one wants to see their football team play. They had to lay off a big chunk of their athletic support staff this week.)

Many schools are now offering tuition free attendance for all enrollees. including most of the Ivy's, and quite a few other schools with high endowments. I can think of several schools right off the top of my head - William and Mary, and a whole bunch of D3 schools.

When you have an endowment of tens of billions of dollars, tuition makes no sense.

The trend

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by mattywizz on Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:48 pm

DaTruRochin wrote:Nevermind the fact that Mike Bibby and his dad aren't exactly, uh, pals.... (but yeah Henry did offer a scholly that was turned down)

I know, it was kind of a funny situation. But it was the first father/son coach/player/recruit example I could think of. Would you rather I used Homer and Bryce Drew?

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by DaTruRochin on Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:27 pm

Haha, or perhaps Lon and Kevin Kruger...

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by SoreKnees on Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:13 am

Purplegeezer wrote:Well, no.

Stanford does offer merit based scholarships independent of need.
Look here

I'm pretty sure that's the case for every institution that values scholarship.


Geez, the page you reference is for external scholarships that can be won by anyone attending any college, so there's no recruiting advantage from having one of these. For obvious reasons, no school is going to tell its students that they can't get aid from someone else to help pay their tuition.

Stanford does have a more generous interpretation of need than some less-well-endowed schools, but they offer only two kinds of institutional aid: need-based aid and athletic scholarships. Most Ivies and top liberal-arts colleges (including Reed locally) offer only need-based aid, no athletic or merit-based aid. From the Stanford financial-aid Web site: "All university scholarship funds are need-based," and "Stanford does not match merit-based awards from other universities."

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by Geezaldinho on Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:13 am

SoreKnees wrote:

Geez, the page you reference is for external scholarships that can be won by anyone attending any college, so there's no recruiting advantage from having one of these. For obvious reasons, no school is going to tell its students that they can't get aid from someone else to help pay their tuition.

Stanford does have a more generous interpretation of need than some less-well-endowed schools, but they offer only two kinds of institutional aid: need-based aid and athletic scholarships. Most Ivies and top liberal-arts colleges (including Reed locally) offer only need-based aid, no athletic or merit-based aid. From the Stanford financial-aid Web site: "All university scholarship funds are need-based," and "Stanford does not match merit-based awards from other universities."

Well, you have to realize Stanford is a special case. There are academic scholarship opportunities available to top stanford students merely because they are drawing from the very top of the pool. Here's just one example:

The current enrollment per undergraduate class hovers around 1675. The most recent figures on the National Merit site shows that in the 2003 class there were 325 National Merit or Minority merit scholarships in that class. In both those cases it's in the top 5 in the country. Assuming a reasonably steady enrollment (just a guess, if anything I'll bet enrollment was smaller in 2003) That's the top 1/5 or so of the class that doesn't even need to consider where their Stanford money is coming from.

I'll admit, there probably aren't many soccer players in that pool, but if you are smart enough, you could play at Stanford without any concern about athletic scholarship money. Even students who only gain National letters of commendation are often eligible for company employee grants, etc. As such, they could "Buy down" how much athletic money they would need from the school.

Saying that Stanford doesn't offer merit based money has no meaning. If you are at the top of the class, there are all sorts of academic grant opportunities. As to whether that's a recruiting advantage, well, you get to go to a top school and still play top level soccer. that's plenty of inducement.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:57 pm

One other thing about Stanford that I don't know is true about their undergraduates but I know is true about the law school. If you have student loans, you can defer repaying them (without no interest accruing) if you go to work for a non-profit institution after you graduate. And, if you work in the non-profit sector long enough, they can be forgiven. This is something an amazingly well endowed school can do. To me, it is a great policy.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:18 pm

I know one of the challenges for Stanford is admissions. They don't notify the possible recruits until June if they are accepted. I know of a couple of girls that went elsewhere because they were afraid if they weren't accepted they would miss other opportunities.

There was a girl a couple of years ago that was accepted and committed. She missed quite a bit of school for national team commitments during the fall of her senior year and one of her high school teachers gave her a "C" in a class. This brought her GPA down to a point that Stanford admissions rescinded their acceptance and she ended up at Santa Clara.

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Re: Recruiting needs to change...

Post by Auto Pilot on Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:30 pm

The pressure on student athletes and grades is incredible. That is why UP is blessed to have many Pilot fans on the faculty. They don't give anything away but at least they make it possible for the girls to travel and keep up their grades.

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