Moovin' on up

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Moovin' on up

Post by Geezaldinho on Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:22 am

In addition to UP beating a #6 team,


North Carolina loses to South Carolina (unranked) 1-0 http://gamecocksonline.cstv.com/sports/w-soccer/scar-w-soccer-body.html
UCLA game cancelled (lighnting)- they were up by 4 at the time.-won't count.

Notre Dame is tied by Michigan (unranked)


The top two ACC teams get beat on opening night. UP is the only team in the top 4 to win a game.

Notre dame plays Florida (13) Sunday. Edited- ND wins this one 2-0


Can't wait for Tuesdays Polls. Can UCLA be made #1 without winning an official game?

Go Pilots!

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to the big time.....

Post by Geezaldinho on Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:09 pm

The rankings will get shuffled some more.

Texas(7) beat UCLA(2) tonight in Houston.

A UP win against Oregon State would make the Pilots the only one of the top four teams to come out of the first week unscathed!

Go Pilots!

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by ninjapizza on Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:20 am

Purplegeezer wrote: Can UCLA be made #1 without winning an official game?

Apparently? Yes. http://topdrawersoccer.com/articles.aspx?article=2635

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wow

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:30 am

goes to my previous post--"Substance Abuse Proven at TDS"

This may be the first time in history that a team with a losing record (and a winless team at that) has been named #1

Texas gets to move up, though , in the TDS poll----ONE whole slot for beating the #1 team in the Nation.

I was irked at how they treated UP, But if I was Texas, I'd be REALLY pissed.

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by TopDrawerSoccer on Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:02 pm

Purplegeezer wrote:goes to my previous post--"Substance Abuse Proven at TDS"

This may be the first time in history that a team with a losing record (and a winless team at that) has been named #1

Texas gets to move up, though , in the TDS poll----ONE whole slot for beating the #1 team in the Nation.

I was irked at how they treated UP, But if I was Texas, I'd be REALLY pissed.

Well I was the only one who consistently rated Portland #1 2 years ago, wire-to-wire. And I did recognize Enyeart as Rookie of the Year when nobody else did. I honestly try to put some non-hallucinogenic thought into these.

But all of that aside, I really feel with soccer you need to look for some kind of trend, more than just a game. I would argue there are 6-7 teams with a real chance at winning it all, certainly including Portland. Do you really think Notre Dame, North Carolina or UCLA are not because of losing or tying a game? I just think that you want to go by more than a weekend or a match, and as far as ranking someone #1 who hasn't won a game - well that's only true because of a thunderstorm - and it's ALWAYS true when you do a preseason ranking.

Anyway, just some feeble attempt to explain the rankings I do, I realize they are not like everybody else's. Thanks for reading the web site.

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Thanks TDS

Post by PilotNut on Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:45 pm

Thanks for your post, TDS! We would like to hear your perspective/thoughts throughout the season... whether we agree with them, or not! Wink

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TDS and substance abuse

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:58 pm

TopDrawer,

don't take the tag line of my post too seriously, it was just an attention getter. Apparently, it worked. I also actually like it that you aren't in lock step with the other polls. at least it's another view.

I really feel with soccer you need to look for some kind of trend, more than just a game. I would argue there are 6-7 teams with a real chance at winning it all, certainly including Portland. Do you really think Notre Dame, North Carolina or UCLA are not because of losing or tying a game? I just think that you want to go by more than a weekend or a match, and as far as ranking someone #1 who hasn't won a game - well that's only true because of a thunderstorm - and it's ALWAYS true when you do a preseason ranking.

and--

Well I was the only one who consistently rated Portland #1 2 years ago, wire-to-wire. And I did recognize Enyeart as Rookie of the Year when nobody else did. I honestly try to put some non-hallucinogenic thought into these.


Don't rewrite history, As I recall, you are also the one that dropped UP a slot towards the end of the season last time we won the championship, right after you DIDN'T drop some of the other teams for their losses. and that was for only tieing a game. I have no doubt that if UP had lost a game , you would have dropped them further. I challenge you to show me an instance where UP lost a game and held its ranking. But my beef is really different.

Your method of doing polls is broken. You first pump up some of the big school conferences ( your packing the projected 64 team field with virtually all the big 10 schools, for example) then you make it hard for those schools to get bumped off the list for failed performance.

UCLA failed this weekend, as did North Carolina. I'm a little mixed on which failure is of more sirgnificant, losing to a ranked team or a unranked one. Notre Dame couldn't beat their unranked cupcake du jour, so that's not particularly to their credit either. none of them paid for it.

OK, maybe UCLA would have beaten their cupcake. That they didn't, and their own school was too cheap to pay for a change of flights to finish the game and settle the matter is beside the point. UCLA failed to win against a ranked team, and they suffered no penalty in your poll. In fact, they gained, because there are now fewer games left where they can be bumped down.

What does it take for teams to break into your list of top 7? Texas just showed they are in the same class with UCLA at this point in the season. In fact, they just proved something that UCLA hasn't yet, and you just blew them off. If they both won all the rest of their games, you'd still have UCLA ranked higher.

Most teams only play 2,3, or ,rarely, 4 games a year against ranked teams out of conference. These few games are the ony real, valid way to adjust the relative strength of teams and the different conferences. You have just invaliated any claim Texas has that their conference is as good as the PAC 10, and that they are as good as any PAC 10 team. Their great win didn't change a thing in your eyes.



Let me see how this works-- You pack the list with your favorite conference, then you don't count out of conference losses because they were flukes. Then you don't count in conference losses either, because of course, it was a loss to a team from a great conference, and it wouldn't be fair to the loosing team. -- just look at all the teams that conference has on the list! They MUST be great!

Then come Tournament time, you can't have these conference teams playing each other because it wouldn't be fair, would it? So lets spread them out. That of course means that you need to give the top 4 teams in the conference cupcakes to play in the first rounds because they are from such a great conference, and oh yeah, lets make sure they play them at home. It wouldn't be fair to make those great teams travel, would it?

GREAT SYSTEM
works great for the UCLA's and NC's of the world, not so great for schools from one of the conferences NOT on your favored list. If you put the WCC on that list I might change my mind, of course

Here's a start-- San Diego beat and tied two ACC teams on your 64 list- how are you going to reflect that in conference strength?


If a poll is based on performance and not just a major conference shuffle, it has to reflect results week after week. If it doesn't, then it just makes it harder to change later in the season. It wouldn't have hurt UCLA to drop ONE notch for a loss to a ranked team. it would just have shown that the poll reflected reality. If UCLA were that good, a poll based on performance would have corrected itself as the season wore on. As it is, they have a pass on their loss.

UCLA plays 3 top 10 teams out of conference this year. You just gave them and the PAC10 a "get out of jail free" ticket on one of those games.
NC and the ACC get a relative pass, too. If you can't beat your opening week cupcake, you shouldn't hold your ranking. Ditto if you loose to another ranked team. You should drop, they should rise.
Nore Dame maybe shouldn't drop, but they certainly shouldn't rise in the standings after this week.

Your sacred 7 list isn't inviolate. It should reflect the realities of that particular season.
It can stand a team or two dropping off the list.

It's nice to know how you are doing things, though. UCLA and UP meet later this month. It's great to know that if UP loses (won't happen) they won't drop in the polls either, because losses to a ranked team don't count, especially if the winning team is higher ranked.

Let me ask you this-- If UCLA looses that game as well? will you still rank them #1 even though they lost to two ranked teams? How about three ranked teams?

What does it take?

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by Stonehouse on Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:39 am

Top Drawer... thanks for stopping in here! Your views are always welcome, and you've got to remember that we all wear purple-colored glasses! Smile Yes, you've been good to UP soccer and we appreciate it!

I see where you are coming from... obviously a team like UCLA or North Carolina is still capable of winning the national championship. But in my opinion, the polls should reflect how teams are performing at a given moment, just as they are in football and basketball.

In basketball, when Florida lost to LUS and Tennessee at the end of the regular season last year, their ranking dropped, even though they were still capable of winning it all--which they ultimately did.

I guess what I'm saying is this... why even update polls from week to week if they aren't going to reflect what actually happens in terms of performance?

But hey... UP will get their shot at UCLA in a few weeks, so it will be settled then! Smile

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by TopDrawerSoccer on Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:43 pm

I looked at last year's bracket and noted the ACC and Big East each got 7 berths, the SEC 5 and Big 10, Big 12 and Pac 10 4 each. (i did this very quickly so apologies in advance if any of these are wrong). I think the WCC had 3, right?

I know I had nothing to do with those selections and also nothing with the seedings. I understand what you are saying about how that plays out with travel and what not, but again, I'm not the one doing it, so I'm not sure your beef is really with me on that part of it.

I don't have a favorite conference. The closest thing I have to a favorite team is my alma mater - Toledo - who are definitely not in this discussion. I really am a fan of all of them, which you'll probably note if you look around my site at all.

As to who moved up and how much and when, I'll just repeat that I want to see it over more than a match. When I said 6 or 7 having a chance to win it all, I do mean for this year, not based on reputation or history or whatever. It seems there are 2 continental shelves in women's soccer, one somewhere around 6 to 8, and the other maybe between 30 and 40 (or maybe a little higher). That's just anecdotal.

I would say my trend is generally not to drop a team that loses to a higher-ranked team - you are correct. But ultimately if one team continues to win, it will likely rise. If a team continues to struggle it will probably fall - I just maybe give it a little longer. You say I gave them a get out of jail pass, and I'm saying I'm looking more for a trend. Since we have a tournament to decide the winner anyway, seems like the ranking should be more than just order of winning percentage.

Stonehouse - I think the college football and basketball polls are not so good for that reason.

But again, I see very little difference between teams 1- 7 or 8. It should be good theatre to watch it unfold.

Let me ask you an unrelated question, do the Pilots get a lot of support from the community in terms of attendance? I mean people other than students and family. Do they generate a pretty good buzz. I would think soccer people in the area for instance would want to come out just for the way they play. That Santa Clara game last year on FSC was the best women's soccer game I've seen anywhere in terms of style of play.

P.S. - My apologies and you are exactly right, I checked and I did drop Portland a spot for the final week of the 2005 season. My memory started failing at about child #5, so please forgive me.

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by Stonehouse on Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:56 pm

TDS... you make fair points. What can I say... we just like to see the Pilots in the No. 1 spot! Smile

As to your question regarding Portland getting support from the community in terms of attendance...

Portland led the country in average attendance last year:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_soccer/1/2006/2006_d1_w_soccer_attendance.pdf

And Portland led the country in average attendance in 2005:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_soccer/1/2005/2005_d1_w_soccer_attendance.pdf

In fact, the Pilots have been at least top four every season since 2001:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_soccer/1/attendance.html

And it's only growing... season tickets quickly sold out last year and this year. When the Pilots hosted two playoff games in 2005 (don't even get me started on how Portland gets screwed on hosting playoff games), the quarterfinal match against Notre Dame sold out in six minutes. 5,000 tickets sold out in six minutes! For a women's soccer game!

The team is really popular with families and youth soccer teams... the players are terrific ambassadors for the school and always take the time to talk to/meet the youth players and always do autograph sessions and other functions for the kids.

The game against Florida State was no exception... sold out crowd, HUGE and vocal student turnout (they had to turn students away), totall electric atmosphere... it was awesome.

If you've never seen a game at Merlo... it really is the epitome of the college soccer experience. A beautiful soccer-only facility, boistrous student section, grandstans full of kids in their jerseys and parents in purple... it's awesome.

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by Stonehouse on Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:57 pm

TDS... you make fair points. What can I say... we just like to see the Pilots in the No. 1 spot! Smile

As to your question regarding Portland getting support from the community in terms of attendance...

Portland led the country in average attendance last year:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_soccer/1/2006/2006_d1_w_soccer_attendance.pdf

And Portland led the country in average attendance in 2005:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_soccer/1/2005/2005_d1_w_soccer_attendance.pdf

In fact, the Pilots have been at least top four every season since 2001:

http://www.ncaa.org/stats/w_soccer/1/attendance.html

And it's only growing... season tickets quickly sold out last year and this year. When the Pilots hosted two playoff games in 2005 (don't even get me started on how Portland gets screwed on hosting playoff games), the quarterfinal match against Notre Dame sold out in six minutes. 5,000 tickets sold out in six minutes! For a women's soccer game!

The team is really popular with families and youth soccer teams... the players are terrific ambassadors for the school and always take the time to talk to/meet the youth players and always do autograph sessions and other functions for the kids.

The game against Florida State was no exception... sold out crowd, HUGE and vocal student turnout (they had to turn students away), totall electric atmosphere... it was awesome.

If you've never seen a game at Merlo... it really is the epitome of the college soccer experience. A beautiful soccer-only facility, boistrous student section, grandstans full of kids in their jerseys and parents in purple... it's awesome.

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Media

Post by PilotNut on Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:55 pm

Not to mention that local TV stations were bidding to televise the home playoff games... the fan support in Portland for the team is quite amazing and broad based.

We have also been fortunate to have excellent coverage from the Oregonian newspaper... including a huge photo & article on the front of today's sports page...

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by Stonehouse on Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:58 pm

Well... I would definitely say that the coverage with Abby Haight was considerably better than with Bo Herzog... I always get the sense that Bo is searching for controversy and doesn't quite understand sports. But actually his articles have been a bit better this year... here's hoping that he can continue to improve.

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by ninjapizza on Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:36 pm

Whatever happened to Abby Haight?

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Re: Moovin' on up

Post by Stonehouse on Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:09 pm

She switched out of sports and now writes in the Living section. She wrote a really nice article about how she became a fan while covering the team and is now a season ticker holder... I couldn't find it in a quick Google search, but I'll try later.

A lot of the beat writers for the Oregonian switch sections every few years... Bo, for example, used to write in business and in the crime section.

But I wish Abby were back covering the Pilots!

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Fan support

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:17 pm

TopDrawer,

It's great that you are willing to get involved in our little forum. Your support in the past has been great, I'll admit, with perhaps a stumble or two. For the most part, you DID lead the pack in seeing how good the Pilots were in 2005. you might as well get on the bandwagon this year, because when we get our players off the injury list and back from the World Cup, it's final four for sure, and probably all the marbles. They're not in championship form yet, but they will be. They probably have more talent overall, and more balanced talent, than last time.

If you haven't seen a night home game and you are a soccer fan, you really need to get out here. Merlo Field is packed to capacity, fan support is raucous, The student section is chanting and singing--. The stands are right against the sidelines and it's real intimate-not a bad seat in the house. If you see an attendance figure of around 4800, it's sold out. That's the only real limit to attendance figures.


Portland is a soccer town. Comunity support is great. Its something the family can all enjoy. Coaches from club and school teams bring their kids out to see what great soccer should look like, and sometimes the kid's autograph zone takes 45 minutes to empty out. The players stay and talk to every kid cheerfully. Some of the current players talk about going trough those same lines when they were young.

Its also a pretty soccer savvy crowd. if you stand in the concession lines, you can hear conversations about who's playing well and who looks hurt, what formations teams are using, and what adjustments you can expect at halftime.

And the crowd is appreciative of other good teams, too. Saturday night, they gave the Pilots team a great ovation during their warm-downs, but they also applauded a good Fla State team. The same thing happened when Notre Dame, NC, and Santa Clara last came to town.

I understand that Texas A&M also has good crowds, nearly as big as Portland's. They do it in a bigger stadium, attendance is free, the school is 20 times bigger than UP, and well, what else is there to do in College Station? I'm sure the A&M team isn't on top the athletic heap there. Here, it is.

Find out for yourself. There are home games in two weeks, but if you want the real experience, come to the Santa Clara game later on. There's nothing like it. Even Jerry Smith will tell you that. Just make sure you call ahead so we can save some room. If you can't make it, at least watch the San Diego game on FSC a game before. it won't be the same as live, but you might get a hint.

p.s.
apology accepted. There's no way you could remember all those polls. As to the rest, I understand you are trying to follow trends and predict the 64 team field. I think that's a fresh approach. I know you don't actually make the choices, but you have a hand in influencing them.

I'm sort of in agreement with your "two shelf" idea- to a point. You can't ignore successes of a team that isn't on your shelf, or failures of a team that loses to someone off the shelf. It just becomes a self fullfilling thing. You didn't credit Texas because they weren't in your top 7. That wasn't fair.

What I'm looking for is fairness. Treat all contenders the same as they prove themselves. No more free passes. Though I'll admit I'm a rabid UP fan, You'll note my original comment was about Texas, not us. (I can't believe I did that)

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