Current state of the program

The sky is NOT falling! As with most topics there are multiple angles taken by people when expressing their views. I have much more enjoyed reading the posts from those that choose to support the Pilot program versus looking at reasons why it isnt a top tiered WCC team. If its any consolation when reading the other message boards the same discussions take place, with similar arguements about coaching, players, win loss records and the such. It is I suppose a part of sports, just like the game is kept by statistics, fans reactions can be tracked the same way. What percentage supports and what percentage cries out for change.

I think the WCC as a whole is a cyclical conference. In the late 80's the landscape looked a lot different than it does now. In the 90's, Pepperdine had a nice run, Santa Clara was among the top teams every year and of course since 1999 Gonzaga has been the top team. But what stands out to me is that the remainder of the WCC schools go through their ups and downs. It is extremely hard to rise to the top and STAY there. Just ask any team in the WCC. The reality of these smaller school conferences is that every team will take their turn with 20 win seasons and also take their turn with 10 win seasons. Its the nature of the game, nature of the league.

So what does that mean for Portland? Well I look at it like this. The Pilots enjoyed two 20 win seasons in the not to distant past and now they are on the other end of the cyclical cycle. They are rebuilding and working hard to get back to where they were. Ask Santa Clara from last year how important one or two key players are to a program. They went 0-16 in league and now they are back to a respectable team.
What the last two games (USD and Pepperdine) showed me is that the Pilot squad isnt too far away from being a .500 team. If Kevin was available and the opposing teams didnt have to scheme for just one player it is likely we could have pulled both those game out with a win. Add in a mid level LMU team which the Pilots should be competitive with that makes four out of nine teams that are all around the same quality. Portland is one "player" away from being the fifth or sixth team in the WCC. If that was the case would this thread be in existence?

Bottom line is this. Gonzaga is the exception to the rule. However they have sustained their dominance its not something that can be duplicated easily. St Marys is stronger but they have been building for many years, only recently enjoying the success of their labor. In no short part due to their cultivation of an Australian pipeline which by the way is under NCAA investigation. BYU is unique because of their Mormon heritage. They are a much bigger school than the rest of the WCC, they are older, and they have faith based connections that arent available to the Catholics schools in the conference. Heck Jabari Parker, the #1 recruit in the country was in the conversation until the end for BYU strictly because his family is Mormon.
The rest, USF, LMU, Santa Clara, USD, Pepperdine and Portland will be a continuing shuffle in wins/losses. On any given year you could allign them in a variety of order and every year that order will look differently.

With all that said does that mean the Pilots should settle? Absolutely not. Does it mean they have settled? I think not. I believe that the staff has gotten a great group of people and players. They work hard on the court, they work hard in the classroom. They stay out of trouble and represent their institution in a positive fashion. When watching their play it is evident they are hard working players that leave their efforts on the court. As fans can we really ask for more? Sure its easy to moan and groan about the lack of wins but at the end of the day are we not looking up to these scholar athletes for their commitment to school and basketball? Can we honestly look at ourselves and say that we give as much time, energy and focus to be the best we can be with our jobs? One of the most memorable scenes I have taken away from this program is when after several games last year the whole team sat down at a table and signed autographed posters for the kids who went to the game. When I see how those players interacted with the youth of our community it made me proud to have been at the game and I quickly forgot who won or lost, the fact that these men were smiling and sharing themselves like that was what made me proud to support amateur athletics.

I would hope we all as fans can keep in perspective what this game is all about. If one person reading this thinks that for one moment that these players want nothing more than to win then you are mistaken. If anyone thinks that they dont bleed for this program every single day then you are wrong. Every school in the WCC tries hard to compete and be successful. The effort and will is evident around the conference, that is why I am a fan versus rooting for say the SEC. The WCC epitomizes what student athletes are really about. Kids that are going on to something else other than basketball when their eligibility is over.

I encourage everyone to keep these things in mind when turning to sports for entertainment. I can assure you that the players and coaches are working harder than we are out there. Its easy to critique, easy to find fault but try putting yourself in the players shoes. I know they own the losses a lot more than we do as fans. Give credit where it is due, to the effort and sacrifice these athletes are making. They are working very hard and for me thats all I need to see. With this commitment the wins will come and if they dont then I still have had the pleasure of seeing amateur athletics at its finest.

Thanks DoubleDipper, I love seeing these numbers.

I heard someone make a great point today: U of P's priority is clearly the women's soccer team--who has had great success over the years!!!

Anybody know what our record against Gonzaga over the last decade is in Women's soccer? How about cross country?

U of P does have programs that excel athletically, despite our size. The athletic department is trying to improve the basketball program without sacrificing that success--world class success in the case of soccer. I feel like we all owe the Athletic program a hearty congratulations!

The blueprint is there, we've seen success before in other programs. We have to remember that we cannot just snap our fingers and achieve the type of success that is being discussed here.

One of the best things that we can do for the program right now is create an environment that makes the players feel appreciated. Potential recruits will see this, and give us a good look.

Go Pilots!!!

Oldtimer wins for best post of this thread!!!!!!!

bctigard wrote:Oldtimer wins for best post of this thread!!!!!!!

Ha ha, yea, but I will have to finish reading it in its entirety tomorrow; I think I've already used up my broadband allotment for today!

DoubleDipper wrote:

bctigard wrote:Oldtimer wins for best post of this thread!!!!!!!

Ha ha, yea, but I will have to finish reading it in its entirety tomorrow; I think I've already used up my broadband allotment for today!

That would be due to your picture posting!

DoubleDipper wrote:Some schools, due to their geography, don’t need to spend much money to recruit as they are already in the big city with a ton of potential recruits.

Which brings us back to the question of why we had poor luck recruiting within the fine city of Portland. A quick look at Rivals shows three 3 stars near Portland that have committed to Oregon, Oregon State, and St. Marys. I know Oregon isn't some sort of bball recruiting hotbed, but come on. How often do we lock up a top local recruit?

oldtimer wrote: BYU is unique because of their Mormon heritage. They are a much bigger school than the rest of the WCC, they are older, and they have faith based connections that arent available to the Catholics schools in the conference. Heck Jabari Parker, the #1 recruit in the country was in the conversation until the end for BYU strictly because his family is Mormon.

A truly unique scenario. Imagine if there was only one Catholic D1 school in the nation. They would dominate athletically.
(BTW BYU is gonna be in a new conference soon.....nothing to see here.....move along)

I thought we locked up three on this team.

pilotram wrote:.
(BTW BYU is gonna be in a new conference soon.....nothing to see here.....move along)

What? Are you saying there was no truth at all to This post?

(BTW, a big thanks to BYU for the chunk of money they leave with the conference. It was a very profitable two years.)

Maybe we can use some of the money to go back to the old WCC logo.

DoubleDipper wrote:

bctigard wrote:Oldtimer wins for best post of this thread!!!!!!!

Ha ha, yea, but I will have to finish reading it in its entirety tomorrow; I think I've already used up my broadband allotment for today!

Missed the BCS Championship game while flying from LAX tonight, but it didn't matter because I finally had the opportunity to read Oldtimers post.

Well said, Oldtimer; your ability to put into words what many of us feel is deeply appreciated.

Seeing David Carr go down on Saturday, and learning later that he will most likely face surgery and a long period of rehabilitation, only strengthened my knowledge that the majority of us appreciate the players not so much for how many wins or losses they accumulate, but for how proudly they represent the university and the fans who care so much about them.

When you stated, "They are working very hard and for me that’s all I need to see. With this commitment the wins will come and if they don’t then I still have had the pleasure of seeing amateur athletics at its finest," you summarized why I attend every basketball game....and the women's games too. Thank you.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts... please keep them coming!!

I should start out by saying that I erred when I titled this thread... I should not have exactly stated "Current" state of the program... I should have been more general in the time frame, and not solely referring to this season. My frustration lies in the medium- and longer-term results of the Men's basketball program. I do believe that currently both the coaching staff and players are giving their all, and trying their hardest.

We were making nice progress relative to our WCC competition from 2008-2011, but that has not proven to be sustainable, and for whatever reason, the win/loss results are not where, in my opinion, we should expect them to be... It really concerned me when this season started to look more like last season than making significant progress, and the trend from the end of the 2011 season to today is downward... and next year? We lose our best defender, and are going to have to get a lot out of a Freshman PG next year to significantly improve a stagnant offense... That is potentially a 3-year negative trend that I think should be a concern. I fear that many fans, alums (and maybe some administrators?) have settled with an inevitability that we are a lower tier WCC team or happy to just be trying hard; there are comments to that effect in this thread.

Thank you for the well-drafted thoughts, Oldtimer... I agree with most of what you wrote, but I will challenge you on 2 points:
(1) I refuse to believe that back-to-back 3rd place WCC finishes and consecutive first-round losses in the CIT is our peak or the highest achievable point in the cyclical nature of the conference. This high point is lower than all of our WCC partners, and is below what I believe we should be aiming for or satisfied with... an easy-to-track measurement of this is NCAA & NIT tournament appearances. Since UP joined the WCC in 1976, we have 1 NCAA appearance. The rest of the conference (per the WCC site, since 1976) has the following NCAA appearances: GU (15), Pepp (11), SCU (4), USF (6), SMC (6), LMU (3), USD (4) and BYU info prior to 2012's appearance not listed and not really relevant. NIT appearances since 1976 are: Pepp (7), SCU (4), GU (3), USF (2), SMC (2), LMU (1), UP (None) and USD (None). We are at the bottom of this list, and have been for some time.

(2) You stated "I have much more enjoyed reading the posts from those that choose to support the Pilot program versus looking at reasons why it isnt a top tiered WCC team." I challenge the insinuation that someone who questions or inquires about the program is not supporting it. In fact, I believe that "support" in just about any situation includes encouraging growth and questioning expectations and boundaries (and shouldn't we always be aiming for the top?) I am in fact "looking" at the program, if you want to question my support, I have been a season ticket holder for 16 years (and following UP hoops, starting as a student, for 21 years). In those 21 years of following the team, I have attended at least 16 WCC tournaments (almost all games, not just UP games). I have also been a Pilot Club member for 16 years running, I have volunteered, and I have written letters to alumni to ask for support, and I happily give my time to moderate this board. I absolutely support this University, Athletic Department and basketball program with all of my heart (and a good chunk of my wallet ), and have for years... but I feel that we can and should grow the program, as the benefits of a successful program are worthy of a thread in and of themselves. I also feel I have some outside context, as I have ties to 2 other WCC programs, including going to most GU games growing up at both Kennedy Pavilion and Martin Center, and many friends & family members who are long-term season ticket holders in Spokane (they had tickets before 1996).


I am not advocating for the firing of the current coaching staff, but we all need to figure out how to work together to get a higher level of student-athlete on the team (just like the Music Dept. should always be looking for the best musicians to represent the school, the School of Education and the best potential teachers, the Business School the and the highest performing CPAs...) Even if we did get a new coach, who would we get that is a step up, based on the current state of the Program? (unless you have a "once in a lifetime" opportunity to grab a big name). I am also not stating that we should "sell our soul" and recruit non-student athletes, 1-and-done types that will never go to class, or violate recruiting moral or ethic guidelines. A challenge, yes... impossible? I dont think so.

My apologies for rambling again... I would love to hear from more of you, and I appreciate those that have spoken up so far. There are a myriad of issues and concerns that have been pointed out (and plenty many more we aren't aware of, for sure) and there are no easy answers... but I don't think one can argue that there isn't room for improvement in the program. I will leave with the question I keep asking: How many more decades of a sub 40% WCC winning percentage before we evaluate, ask questions and seek solutions? Or, are we destined for ~40% for the foreseeable future? I for one, would sure like to see us raise a few more championship and post-season banners...

I know that there have been some heated posts here but I'm really enjoying this post. I really think discussions like this are positive overall.

A few more thoughts:

Which brings us back to the question of why we had poor luck recruiting within the fine city of Portland. A quick look at Rivals shows three 3 stars near Portland that have committed to Oregon, Oregon State, and St. Mary’s. I know Oregon isn't some sort of bball recruiting hotbed, but come on. How often do we lock up a top local recruit?

Currently David and Jake are the only Oregon Products. Ryan, Tanner, and Riley are all Pacific Northwesterners and the rest are from Canarias, California, and Arizona.

Here's me trying to sell hope again but something that is promising is the potential in our location. As noted Oregon or Oregon State for that matter aren't real storied programs. In Washington you have UW and WSU but I really do believe that our toughest local competition is Gonzaga. Other than that there's Portland State, Seattle, Eastern Washington.... I think those are the D1 schools in the Pacific Northwest. Even still, that's less than 10 schools in a two state area. Using Gonzaga as an example is a "best case scenario" but if you look at their success sustainability a lot had to do with getting those top Washington/Oregon players on a consistent basis. I mean look at WCC players of the year from 2001-2007 for them you have
Casey Calvary (2001-from Seattle)
Dan Dickau (2002-From the Portland area but transferred from UW to GU)
Blake Stepp (2003-2004 from Bend)
Morrison (2006- Spokane)
Ravio (2007 Portland Area)

That a 7 year period in which the WCC player of the year came from Washington/Oregon and GU had them all. They took advantage of an area without a power program and made their own.

In recent memory, Nik Ravio is probably the best local product to attend UP, but we've also had Sikma and Stohl who were great finds in the broader Pacific Northwest region. I think there have been some good finds, but there have been misses as well. Just think for a minute, if UP could build a successful program (I mean NCAA tourneys and maybe a couple wins in the tournament) that was sustained for 4-5 years how many local prospects would at least consider UP, even if it is just for a second. The reason we've played Kentucky and UNLV is because of local prospects wanting to showcase their talents in Portland. I'm not saying we would be able to get any of the top prospects from Portland, but we may be in the discussion, kind of like BYU was in the discussion for Parker earlier and that’s a big step. Basically I'm saying there's potential there, and while it may be extremely difficult to tap that potential and find our niche I think that it should be made a priority, and based on comments from Rev's twitter it seems like that is the case. I understand this is a Pie in the Sky type of dreaming but the potential is there to tap.


Another thing I wanted to bring up again, and who knows what's going on behind closed doors, but I think there needs to be discussions and evaluations on every aspect of UP basketball. I'm talking about evaluation of staff, players, recruiting process, facilities, student involvement, community involvement, band, Purple Pride, Pilot Riot (if that’s still a thing), etc. I think we can all agree that the basketball culture on the bluff leaves something to be desired. There have been moments, singular games, or maybe even a season or two or three with great environments, and groups of dedicated students, fans but nothing sustainable. I haven't been on campus for the past 3 seasons so I'm not sure what marketing is doing, and I know they work really really hard, and try to come up with creative events, give aways, entertainment, but at some point we need to think outside the box. Moneyball it a little. But as far as an entertainment draw we are competing against the Blazers, Portland State, and on some levels the state schools. When it comes to the students, there are way too many people who care more about UofO, OSU, UW, WSU, and even Gonzaga then UP, and that needs to change. Try to find a Gonzaga student who cheers for UW when they play each other. This has been talked about soooo many times on here over the years but I still feel like the same approach is taken every year and the culture stays the same. Maybe I'm way off base, just a thought.

PilotNut wrote:Thank you everyone for your thoughts... please keep them coming!!
I would love to hear from more of you, and I appreciate those that have spoken up so far[/u]. There are a myriad of issues and concerns that have been pointed out (and plenty many more we aren't aware of, for sure) and there are no easy answers... but I don't think one can argue that there isn't room for improvement in the program. I will leave with the question I keep asking: How many more decades of a sub 40% WCC winning percentage before we evaluate, ask questions and seek solutions? Or, are we destined for ~40% for the foreseeable future? I for one, would sure like to see us raise a few more championship and post-season banners...

Quite right, Pilotnut. I think we'd all agree with that. There is room for improvement. Perhaps it's time for a separate thread dedicated specifically to suggestions.

Go Pilots~!!!

Pilotnut

I wanted to address your comment #2 in the above posting. I did not mean to insunuate that you or anyone else on this board/thread does not support the Pilot program. That was the farthest thing from my mind and I apologize for the wording, it did not represent the intent. What I was trying to say, and I think you could tell by the overal theme of my post, was that to me it was encouraging to read examples like BCTigard's.
I fully realize that there are great fans/supporters like yourself that have invested a lot of time with the Pilot team and in no way did I mean to minimize or detract from that support.
It is a good reminder for me to double, even triple check wording when executing a lengthy thread.

DTLegend wrote:but I think there needs to be discussions and evaluations on every aspect of UP basketball. I'm talking about evaluation of staff, players, recruiting process, facilities, student involvement, community involvement, band, Purple Pride, Pilot Riot (if that’s still a thing), etc.

DD's got cheerleader uniforms covered, we can cross that off the list.
Good call though, and agree with "moneyballing" it. AD needs to have some smart folks sit down and brainstorm each aspect of the program. Seems like the attitude towards a lackluster team was always find a new coach and hope it works out. There's got to be more to it than that.

pilotram wrote:

DTLegend wrote:but I think there needs to be discussions and evaluations on every aspect of UP basketball. I'm talking about evaluation of staff, players, recruiting process, facilities, student involvement, community involvement, band, Purple Pride, Pilot Riot (if that’s still a thing), etc.

DD's got cheerleader uniforms covered, we can cross that off the list.
Good call though, and agree with "moneyballing" it. AD needs to have some smart folks sit down and brainstorm each aspect of the program. Seems like the attitude towards a lackluster team was always find a new coach and hope it works out. There's got to be more to it than that.

I think there's going to be progress in this process. I was invited to a discussion about improving attendance at college basketball in general. There were representatives from college athletic departments at every level as well as some people very experienced in professional sports marketing. I thought there were some good ideas thrown out there for everyone to think about and I hope some of them get taken back to the athletic department for consideration. It's not going to improve wins and losses but things are being examined.

PurplePrideTrumpet wrote:I was invited to a discussion about improving attendance at college basketball in general. There were representatives from college athletic departments at every level as well as some people very experienced in professional sports marketing.

"professional sports marketing"? Just so long as it doesn't involve PA announcers screaming like maniacs.

I am foreseeing white boots soon for the Pilot Dance Team.

up7587 wrote:

PurplePrideTrumpet wrote:I was invited to a discussion about improving attendance at college basketball in general. There were representatives from college athletic departments at every level as well as some people very experienced in professional sports marketing.

"professional sports marketing"? Just so long as it doesn't involve PA announcers screaming like maniacs.

I am foreseeing white boots soon for the Pilot Dance Team.

PSU already has a guy who sounds like he's auditioning for the NBA. Absolutely brutal.

PurplePrideTrumpet wrote:PSU already has a guy who sounds like he's auditioning for the NBA. Absolutely brutal.

I'm hoping and assuming you're talking about a PA guy; not a player....

pilotram wrote:DD's got cheerleader uniforms covered, we can cross that off the list.
Good call though, and agree with "moneyballing" it. AD needs to have some smart folks sit down and brainstorm each aspect of the program. Seems like the attitude towards a lackluster team was always find a new coach and hope it works out. There's got to be more to it than that.

I know you were just making a funny with the cheerleader remark, but the thing is, uniforms and pom poms were changed because someone talked to the Athletic Department...it does work for the simple things; the more difficult things may take longer, but anything is possible.

PurplePrideTrumpet wrote:PSU already has a guy who sounds like he's auditioning for the NBA. Absolutely brutal.

Oh man, their P.A. announcer is excrutiating... I can't believe he is still there. It is the reason I have never even considered going to the Stott Center to watch a game (other than when we play there). He is *that* annoying.

PilotNut wrote:

PurplePrideTrumpet wrote:PSU already has a guy who sounds like he's auditioning for the NBA. Absolutely brutal.

Oh man, their P.A. announcer is excrutiating... I can't believe he is still there. It is the reason I have never even considered going to the Stott Center to watch a game (other than when we play there). He is *that* annoying.

What's really a mystery is, the guy that announces their women's basketball games also does PSU football, the Timbers, and the Beavers when they were still here. He's great. But they keep the screaming banshee for men's games.

I watched the Blazers after the Bama bulldozer show, and I could hear Mark Mason screaming in the background. On the occasions I hear the Mark and Dave Show, he seems likeable. But I hate his PA work for the Blazers.