What do you know?

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Re: What do you know?

Post by KFTC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:03 am

Purplegeezer wrote:
UP was ranked #2 in the Nation then, on the strength of a tenacious defense that registered 16 shutouts. (I'd like to say Kristen Eaton was the rock in the middle, but I'm not sure I have the right year) and Notre Dame was #4.

You'd never have the right year, because she was an outside back. Wink Haha. Tia Sharpe was the rock in the middle, back when the Pilots still played a 3-5-2.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by KFTC on Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:15 am

FANatic wrote:
You'd think that the NCAA in such a high profile game would have reviewed that "winning goal". It was so obviously a screw up by the ref! Mad

Was there any outrage or challenge issued by UP to the NCAA? If they didn't, I would have been hopping mad at our guys for not at least making a big stink about it to the national media, the WCC and the NCAA.

A) It was women's soccer in 1995, so they didn't really care...especially since UNC was out of the tournament. It didn't really matter to the NCAA.
B) From my understanding, the referee admitted he didn't really know how to stop the celebration in progress and didn't have the heart to tell the Notre Dame players to clear the field because there were so many of them on the field celebrating. It is also my understanding, though this may be urban legend, that the referee sent a letter of apology to UP and Clive for his actions several weeks after the Final Four. It's so unbelievable to think that it actually might be true.
C) No outrage or challenge from UP (I'm sure there was outrage...I was outraged when I watched it on TV); I think, from what I understand, Clive was always of the opinion of "well, if that's the way Chris Petrucelli wants to win, especially a national championship, and he's okay with that, then so be it. We'll have other opportunities." There's no use in looking like a poor loser, especially in the face of such poor winners.

All I have to say about 1995 is those stupid, freaking green jerseys. Argh! And that stupid, smarmy Leprechaun who ran the sidelines--I'm sure those of you who made the trip to Santa Clara for the Final Four in 1996 remember who I'm talking about. I was with a group of people during that trip and we happened to run into him and he started taunting us and I thought that was especially brave of him considering he was backed by a bunch of cheerleaders and our group was kind of a crew of soccer hooligans who probably would've beat him senseless had we not been in the lobby of a hotel.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:44 am

KFTC wrote:
Purplegeezer wrote:
UP was ranked #2 in the Nation then, on the strength of a tenacious defense that registered 16 shutouts. (I'd like to say Kristen Eaton was the rock in the middle, but I'm not sure I have the right year) and Notre Dame was #4.

You'd never have the right year, because she was an outside back. Wink Haha. Tia Sharpe was the rock in the middle, back when the Pilots still played a 3-5-2.

Tia!

Well, if I had an archive, I'd have had it right Very Happy
I admitted they were going to get my version, even if wrong.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Stonehouse on Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:39 am

Ugh... bad memories of 1995. Sad I just remember being in BC Aud stunned and not understanding what had happened.

What I know for a fact is that they used video of that game while training officials. Friends of mine who I played with and who reffed and who had to take classes, and they used that video as an example of what NOT to do and of a terrible call and the consequences of allowing something like that to happen.

There's no way around it... it was a terrible call. I think everyone who saw it knew that it shouldn't have counted, but once the cork was off the bottle, there just wasn't any way to put the chapmagne back in, you know? There's a certain part of me that almost admires Cindy Daws for just kicking it in and forcing the ref into that spot. But then I think... nah, it was way too cheap.

And KFTC... you've never been more right than you were about that damned Leprachaun. Wanted to kill him. I'm not a violent guy and I've never been in a fight, but that freaking leprachaun...... I was close.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:03 am

Stonehouse wrote:

And KFTC... you've never been more right than you were about that damned Leprachaun. Wanted to kill him. I'm not a violent guy and I've never been in a fight, but that freaking leprachaun...... I was close.

I've never understood that whole leprechaun thing and the Fighting Irish thing. First off, sometimes the leprechaun is 6'2" or something, which makes absolutely no sense.

But beyond that, the Fighting Irish thing seems like a slur that goes beyond any Native American or other ethnic slur.


150 years ago, Fighting Irish wasn't a reference to irish independence patriots or a reference to US independence patriots like Sullivan ( Colonial officer of the day when the British were forced out of Boston on St Patrick's day 1776) or General Henry Knox (commanded Colonial artillery)


It was a slur against Irish Americans who participated in food and Draft Riots in the Civil war era and immortalized by political cartoonist Thomas Nast. They were seen as a threat to the established Tamany organization that ruled politics at the time in New York City. Notre Dame even dressed up the 'leprechaun " like the ape-like characters in the cartoons.

See if you don't agree.












Last edited by Purplegeezer on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:37 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: What do you know?

Post by FANatic on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:16 am

Note: Wrote this before Stonehouse' and geezer's last two posts.

Wow! Clive must have been one classy guy. (I never met the man, but hear of him regularly, even
years after his passing. He will obviously always be the backbone of the UP soccer program - men and women.) Cool

"KFTC wrote:

B) From my understanding, the referee admitted he didn't really know how to stop the celebration in progress and didn't have the heart to tell the Notre Dame players to clear the field because there were so many of them on the field celebrating.

A very telling piece of info, KFTC. He "didn't have the heart to tell the Notre Dame players..."! scratch
Well, DID HE HAVE THE HEART TO LOOK INTO THE EYES OF UP PLAYERS AND COACHES AND TELL THEM THAT THEY JUST "LOST" THE TITLE ON HIS MISTAKE, after running through the season and playoffs unbeaten, and were in their FIRST championship game, after over 120 minutes of shutout soccer? Sounds like he was trying to rationalize his mistake and ended up sounding like a buffoon in the process.

I assume the referee was NCAA top flight, or he wouldn't have been assigned the title game. Everyone makes mistakes, but his linesmen and alternate ref should have talked him into acting rationally and stopping the insanity. There are certain mistakes in life, especially if you are a seasoned grown-up, that you just cannot make. (Like an airlines pilot misjudging the runway - okay that was a tad bit extreme of an example.) But a blown call happens all the time in sports and can cause your team a title. But this guy apparently KNEW he was wrong, and still didn't take action. He should have been sanctioned by the NCAA and forced to undergo Marine Basic Training!!! After that, he wouldn't have any trouble calling off that insane "celebration". Evil or Very Mad

However, in the spirit of Clive and all that's happened between now and then, I "forgive" the referee in question. And I do believe in Clive's basic tenet of moving forward, and getting so good that that kind of situation just cannot happen again. Certainly, the 4-0 pasting of UCLA in the 2005 finals is a classic example of taking control and not letting anything, including referee's calls or non-calls or just plain "bounce off the crossbar" bad luck, stop you from winning the match!!! Very Happy

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Re: What do you know?

Post by SoreKnees on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:44 am

I don't remember the incident in the Notre Dame match clearly, though I'm sure I watched it at the time. But as a referee, I'm wondering what he did that was wrong. In general, the team taking the kick has a right to a quick restart if they want one, unless the referee stops the match for an injury or they have asked the referee to push the defense back to a ten-yard interval. Did one of these situations occur? Was there some other reason why the referee should not have allowed a quick restart? (Chaos around the ball is not a valid reason.) Was the restart not taken from the proper spot?

As for asking whether the kick is direct or indirect, setting the wall, etc., defenders and goalkeepers do that at their own risk. It shouldn't be necessary to ask whether it's direct or indirect because the referee's arm will be up in the latter case.

I remember watching Michelle Akers with the USWNT at Merlo in the early 1990s. She had been taken down hard outside the box and was on hands and knees facing the corner flag. One of her teammates placed the ball behind her boot, she tapped it backwards while still on her knees (taking the free kick), and her teammate blasted it into the net past a stunned 'keeper: Goal USA!

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Stonehouse on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:58 am

Yeah, that's a fair question SoreKnees.

But as a player, when there is a kick awarded outside the box, just the way it works is the offense gets set, the defense sets the wall, and then the referee signals or blows his whistle to indicate that play is back live.

I mean... quick restarts are OK in the middle of the field and off corner kicks and stuff, but on a direct kick outside the box, it's just kind of standard procedure for the ref to indicate play is back on. I can't think of any instance in my glorious career as a player in which a quick restart was allowed (or even attempted) on a direct kick like that. It's just not the way it works.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by SoreKnees on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:05 am

You're right, Stonehouse, that's usually the way it works on possible scoring situations. But unless there's an injury or card, it's the attacker's option. Most attacking teams want to back the opponents up and get their players into position, so they usually ask for 10 yards, which means that play cannot restart until the referee signals. I've seen a few situations over the years where clever players have seen an opportunity and taken advantage of the quick restart in scoring situations. Because it's not commonly done, the defense is often unprepared.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Stonehouse on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:15 am

True. And honestly it's hard to remember exactly how it went down since it was so long ago. And of course we are all a little to close to the situation.

But I think you're right... there is room for argument for sure, based on the rules.

But here's the thing... if I remember right (I'm hazy) the referee himself was not ready for it. He was moving the line back (not sure if ND asked for him too) and all of a sudden the ball was in the goal. He wasn't facing the kicker and was not in a position to know if it was legally kicked, if anyone was offsides, etc. etc.

The referee has EVERY right to call back a free kick if he is not prepared for it. He wasn't for this one, but he didn't have the you-know-whats to call it back.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by SoreKnees on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:25 am

Referees are usually taught to face the ball while setting the wall. (Otherwise, unscrupulous players have been known to advance the ball a few yards forward as the referee backs the defense up. Quite comical to watch from the sidelines!) If he wasn't watching, it was his mistake, but the ARs should have been able to help with whether the kick was properly taken. So it wouldn't necessarily have nullified the goal.

On the other hand, if ND had asked for ten yards, then what we call a "ceremonial restart" is required. (Gotta love some of the terms!) An open question is "Who asks for 10 yards?" If the player positioned over the ball asks, then it's obvious. But sometimes the coach will be yelling for 10 yards from the technical area or one of the defenders 40 yards away will shout it out. If the players involved (on both teams) ignore the coach or defender, then a quick restart is usually fine. But if such a request from off the ball misleads the defenders into thinking that play is stopped, then in the interest of fair play the referee should (I think, though this isn't in the laws) force a stoppage. This easily could have happened in this situation, and if the story about the referee apologizing is true, then something similar probably occurred.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:29 am

Once a ref starts getting involved with direction of the game, something like moving back the line, an Offensive player has lost the quick start opportunity. until the ref signals he's ready.

It's considered a delay tactic and a possible yellow card offense. As I say, I saw it called that way in the World Cup (score and all)

Stoney said it was used as an example of how NOT to ref in referee school, remember?

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Re: What do you know?

Post by DaTruRochin on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:31 am

I've played for 20 years and once that whistle blows and the hand isn't up, typically the attacking team has to wait for a whistle to blow again before they can attack. That said quick restarts do happen but are generally frowned upon (similar to Christiano Ronaldo's PK ruse of starting his run, stuttering or stopping right before and then kicking... although technically you can card someone for that, I've seen that happen) I've fell subject to one of those quick restarts on several occasions, but thankfully we had some pretty phenomenal goalkeepers who were able to handle it. Also typically in that situation the defending team will encroach on the 10 yards on purpose just to buy the rest of the defense some time before the kick is taken, although this can be a cautionable offense. Typically it all comes down to the referees discretion, allowing both teams to properly set up... but from what I know it's not absolutely required... but as was mentioned, once the ref is involved, the play shouldn't start until they allow it to...

And I'll let my good friends at FIFA explain the rest

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_13_free_kicks_en_47373.pdfhttp://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law_13_free_kicks_en_47373.pdf


Last edited by DaTruRochin on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Stonehouse on Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:32 am

Ceremonial restart! Great term.

Clearly you've got the rules down pat. And maybe I would have a different opinion of it if I were on the field. But the way the TV coverage showed it... it just looked SO bad. They were showing Erin Fahey moving the wall, when all of a sudden the ball was in the net and no one knew what happened. Then they showed the ref looking all wide-eyed and looking like he was going to throw up. And then they showed all the ND people celebrating and the UP players stunned. And the announcers had no idea what happened either. So package all of that with 1,000 angry Pilot fans in BC Aud... it's no surprise why this game still rubs us pretty dang raw. It's still an open wound! Smile

But I do appreciate you breaking it down. I mean... I think we all (or at least I do) realize that it is open for debate whether or not it should have been allowed.

Still... even if by the rules it should have counted, it would be like winning the World Series with the hidden ball trick. No matter what, it was pretty bush league.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by SciFi on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:09 pm

Still bring a tear to the eye. . .

-SciFi

Purplegeezer wrote:
PurplePrideTrumpet wrote: Sorry to whoever it was that made the run, but I do remember the cross, the shot, then Christine putting in the rebound, then us Pilots going nuts.

That was another Kristen. Kristen Moore, this time. That play was just one of the chances the Pilots made for themselves that I was referring to.

That team was also pretty good defensively. I think they only allowed one goal the entire tournament.

Here's one example of when archives don't really do you any good. The Press release that Kristen raced down the sideline after gathering up a long pass from Misaki, then sent it in to Sinc. I remember she stole a lateral/back pass from one Santa Clara player to another.

This time there is a way to tell. You be the judge.




about 3:50 minutes in.


(The main reason I put this up is just to see Clive in Triumph again...)

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"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing. As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." -Socrates


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Re: What do you know?

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:12 pm

To add to the quiz nature of this thread:

The Pilots women themselves pulled off a quick restart resulting in a goal, with the ball in about the same starting spot as in the infamous Notre Dame game! What year? Against what team? Where? What Pilot players were involved? Who was the keeper on the other team?

Hint: There are no excuses for any of you missing this!

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Re: What do you know?

Post by PurplePrideTrumpet on Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:13 pm

As an umpire, I will respectfully say that if a runner were caught by the hidden ball trick, it would be his own d@mn fault for walking off the base without knowing where the ball was Smile

And SoreKnees, I don't know how you soccer guys do it--Baseball and softball are hard, but we don't have to run nearly as much, and then only when the ball is hit.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:35 pm

UPSoccerFanatic wrote:To add to the quiz nature of this thread:

The Pilots women themselves pulled off a quick restart resulting in a goal, with the ball in about the same starting spot as in the infamous Notre Dame game! What year? Against what team? Where? What Pilot players were involved? Who was the keeper on the other team?

Hint: There are no excuses for any of you missing this!

If you are talking about Budgies score on a quick restart from Enyeart in the UCLA regular season game last year, you are way off base.

Just good game management Very Happy

Objectivity is not my long suit

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:17 pm

SoreKnees wrote:Referees are usually taught to face the ball while setting the wall. (Otherwise, unscrupulous players have been known to advance the ball a few yards forward as the referee backs the defense up. Quite comical to watch from the sidelines!) If he wasn't watching, it was his mistake, but the ARs should have been able to help with whether the kick was properly taken. So it wouldn't necessarily have nullified the goal.

Not relevant in this case. there were no AR's back then, just linesmen. they weren't allowed to rule on anything but offsides.

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Re: What do you know?

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:48 pm

As I recall, the Notre Dame situation was a little more complicated than what we have discussed so far. In an earlier game, I think also in the tournament Question , we all watched with horror as Erin Fahey let an apparently game winning goal by the free kick taker go right by her into the net. Turns out it was an indirect kick and she had known it, so simply let the ball go in. That made it particularly relevant whether the Notre Dame kick was direct or indirect. I remember at the time, I first thought, "Oh, it must have been an indirect kick again." Sadly, however, not the case. (I didn't particularly like Erin's letting the first kick go in. Awfully risky, I thought.)

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Re: What do you know?

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:27 pm

The Geez is correct, of course, on the Pilots' own quick restart. September 28, 2007, Pilots v UCLA @ UCLA, Enyeart on the quick restart to Budge, past Val Henderson. To tie the game, only to suffer the loss in overtime.

The Pilots also used to pull another deceptive play, on corner kicks. One Pilot would put the ball down, with no one near by, and then give it a little bump with her foot as though someone else was going to take the kick. Another Pilot then would come over, as though she was going to take a corner kick, and just start dribbling towards the goal. The Pilots got away with that for a while, but then the refs started stopping it. affraid

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Re: What do you know?

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:08 pm

UPSoccerFanatic wrote:The Geez is correct, of course, on the Pilots' own quick restart. September 28, 2007, Pilots v UCLA @ UCLA, Enyeart on the quick restart to Budge, past Val Henderson. To tie the game, only to suffer the loss in overtime.

I remember thinking - Cool! we're on the other end of one of those. cheers

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Re: What do you know?

Post by GUPhantom on Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:22 pm

Oh man...Love reading all the blogging...but...it's only getting me all worked up!

Arrgggg.....LET THE SEASON BEGIN ALREADY!!! bounce

Oregon, UCLA, USC, Florida....I can't wait!!

Geezer...while I love the countdown! If you could actually make TIME roll a little faster...I'd be so ever grateful!!! Arrow

Got any magic that can take us to warp speed?? My afterburners are not FAST enough!!

GO PILOTS!!!!

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The Season Is A Comin'....

Post by FANatic on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:19 pm

Unfortunately, Phantom, I think many of us are starting to get the fever. (I sure have!) Personally, I've been posting alot simply because I've got this nervous energy waiting for the season to get rolling. It's really not that far off - August 23rd this year, Oregon Ducks at Merlo. (Under the bright lights)!!! Cool

I'm really looking forward to seeing the new freshmen class. It may be our best class ever. Certainly up in the top three. We know the three Parade All-Americans are probably going to have great careers. They just have so much international experience that I don't think they will be overly tentative or intimidated.

But I'm just as fascinated about what the other three freshmen are going to bring to the table. I just have this "feeling" that Kassandra McCluskie from AZ is going to be this year's Keelin Winters. I just think she is a real talented athlete and may end up even playing center back. She's tall enough at 5'8". And has been compared to Kari Evans. (If you don't know, that is a very favorable comparison.)

Halley Kreminski is the best soccer player coming out of Idaho this year. She is very highly regarded in that state. And lastly, not sure what to expect from Emma Nelson. I know she has had a couple injuries that have limited her exposure to college scouts. But if the Pilots wanted her on their sqaud, you can bet she is a very good fit for this team. Very Happy

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