Bringing Back Porter

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by DoubleDipper on Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:40 pm

Geezaldinho wrote:I still hold out a glimmer of hope someone will do the right thing.
After speaking with even more folks in the administration I am convinced UP will NOT buy-out the remainder of TP's contract.

However, like Geezer, I too believe it is still possible that others will earmark money to UP for only one purpose, TP's "retirement" back to the Portland Trail Blazer community after four years coaching his sons.
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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by bullwinkle on Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:48 pm

Geezaldinho wrote:
DoubleDipper wrote:
Dean Murdoch wrote:A potential Porter buyout in addition to the Cantu buyout means a ton of possible dead salary on the books - gotta be $750,000 or more if the entirety of that final year has to be bought out - so I'm not nearly as confident there'll be a coaching change as some posters in here.
Turns out you're correct!

I have spoken to three highly placed UP administrators in recent days, and all have indicated that unless a number of deep-pocketed UP basketball fan steps up with the required buy-out money, TP will be back for one more season.


I mentioned this at tonight’s game and got three folks to pipe in that they would kick in a grand each. All longtime fans, I don’t think you can call any of them plutocrats.

I still hold out a glimmer of hope someone will do the right thing.

Perhaps the school would consider a "free" Pilot Club membership to all fans that donate a grand to the Trailblazer Retirement Fund.  Kills two bird with one stone - increases the Pilot Club and gets us a new coach.  

Seriously though, I don't see any reason to think Terry will just do the right thing.  We're in exactly the same position we were a year ago.  The only thing year four proved was the first three years can't be blamed on Coach Cantu.  I think it all comes down to Malcom.  If he stays another year, so does his father.  

This all sort of proves the old proverb, "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach" can cut both ways.  We hired an incredibly talented do-er who has been an incredibly poor teacher and leader.

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Post by NoPoNeighbor on Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:20 pm

bullwinkle wrote:I think it all comes down to Malcom.  If he stays another year, so does his father.
I've never heard of a player being honored on Senior Night and then returning to play another year.

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Post by optimist on Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:08 pm

The program cannot go thru another year without a change at the top.  Keeping TP on for one more year is unthinkable given the results over the last four years and the tailspin he is responsible for at UP.  If indeed they can't/won't pay to let him go, then as dholcombe suggested and others have concurred, elevate Geving to the interim head coach spot for next season (not unheard of in D1).  He had a solid run at PSU as head coach and took the team to the NCAA's twice as an asst.  With a year and a half of WCC experience under his belt, he has familiarity with what it takes to win.  And from what I've seen/heard, he is still grinding to do what he can do to make the program better.  Give Geving a real shot to improve the situation...I'm guessing he'd relish the opportunity to turn things around and would be a whole lot cheaper than a new HC since he's already on the payroll.  Or, find the money to buy out TP and hire a new coach (the preferred solution).  But please, please, please don't bring him back for another year...neither he nor the program deserve it!

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Post by wrv on Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:53 pm

DoubleDipper wrote:
wrv wrote:Probably shouldn't ban comments that Porter will in essence "do the right thing," and resign, applying tar and feather to the authors might be more fitting considering their 1st amendment rights.  
Bring it on, wrv...I had no idea you were a proponent of mob justice.

TP should do the right thing and resign!

Well congratulations to you for overreacting and being overly personal. And, per your own posts, you apparently understand you are posting what you believe is a fiction about Porter--if you will, a fairy tale--and yet insist on the right to do so, apparently because the truth should give way when your hackles are raised.

Cowboy, before you accuse me of being for mob rule you should review your threatening post: bring it on?

If you are serious, though I am not sure you are, you should consider civility.

My post was intended in jest: I do not tar and feather generally.

Try to move on. A back and forth is not particularly beneficial.




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Post by StudentPilot on Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:12 pm

wrv wrote:Try to move on. A back and forth is not particularly beneficial.
And yet, that is what you are engaged in?

I agree, Porter should do the right thing and resign!  

Malcolm is exploring playing another year of basketball, but not for his father.
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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by wrv on Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:15 pm

We are talking the difference between "should" and will. My post was not about should, of course he should. My post was about those posting he would.

The response alludes to a whole different circumstance.

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by dholcombe on Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:54 pm

Back to... Opinions about buying it the contract. I don't think it's a good idea under any circumstances. If buyout money surfaces in the basketball budget id rather suffer one more year at the bottom and use the buyout money spread it across a new contract so we could afford a coach that costs another $100k per year. Any damage done over the first 4 years to the program with 1 win in 2 years isn't likely to get much worse in year 5. A new coach will have to rebuild. Let's imagine a donor or group is willing to pony up $500k specifically for basketball.

The question is fall 2020 with say a $500k/yr budget vs fall 2021 with a $600k/yr budget for the next 5 yr contract... I feel like the latter is likely better long term for the program. Anybody have an idea of what an extra $100k gets you coaching wise in the price range we've been spending?

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by dholcombe on Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:02 pm

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/coaches.html
There have been 94 wcc coaches according to this. Terry is #87. Larry Steeler is #89.


Last edited by dholcombe on Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Feb 24, 2020 8:02 pm

dholcombe wrote:https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/coaches.html
They have been 94 wcc coaches according to this. Terry is #87. Larry Steeler is #89.

Holton is the best of the UP Blazers at #75 with a .372% record.


And what I find most amazing is that since 1953, no head coach has coached at more than one school in the conference.
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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:12 pm

dholcombe wrote:. Anybody have an idea of what an extra $100k gets you coaching wise in the price range we've been spending?

Well, Few gets about $1.9 million, which I’m not sure UP would pay even if the wins came with it.

Other than that, it’s all over the map. Few isn’t the highest paid Mid major. That’s probably Tubby Smith, who Memphis is paying $3.3 million to coach at  High Point.
the other end might be Damon Stoudamire, who Pacific is reportedly paying $80K.

Here is a database: https://www.midmajormadness.com/2019/11/4/20946421/ncaa-basketball-head-coach-contract-salary-database-mid-major-2019-20

Corellation between salary and wins isn’t all that good, which I’m sure is incentive for some schools ( ahem) to go cheap.
Previous wins correlate better . P5 schools tend to hire P5 or  mid major coaches and pay more. They don’t hire assistants as a rule.

There are hiring models besides salary. Wins, percent of gate or increase, and tv money all play a role.
Dan Monson at Long Beach state ( née Zags) gets $283k plus 25% of guarantee games above $200K. They play a LOT of guarantee games.
And the 27th highest paid coach makes $2.52 million.
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Post by blacksheep on Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:06 am

Geezaldinho wrote:
dholcombe wrote:. Anybody have an idea of what an extra $100k gets you coaching wise in the price range we've been spending?

Well, Few gets about $1.9 million, which I’m not sure UP would pay even if the wins came with it.

Other than that, it’s all over the map. Few isn’t the highest paid Mid major. That’s probably Tubby Smith, who Memphis is paying $3.3 million to coach at  High Point.
the other end might be Damon Stoudamire, who Pacific is reportedly paying $80K.

Here is a database: https://www.midmajormadness.com/2019/11/4/20946421/ncaa-basketball-head-coach-contract-salary-database-mid-major-2019-20

Corellation between salary and wins isn’t all that good, which I’m sure is incentive for some schools ( ahem) to go cheap.
Previous wins correlate better . P5 schools tend to hire P5 or  mid major coaches and pay more. They don’t hire assistants as a rule.

There are hiring models besides salary. Wins, percent of gate or increase, and tv money all play a role.
Dan Monson at Long Beach state ( née Zags) gets $283k plus 25% of guarantee games above $200K. They play a LOT of guarantee games.
And the 27th highest paid coach makes $2.52 million.

Here's an interesting article regarding spending on Men's Basketball across the country. https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/6/11/17441968/ncaa-revenue-expense-statistics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-major

It's an few years old, but I doubt it's changed much. Paying off Porter a year early would take up 1/6th of our budget. That's a tough pill to swallow. Notice that Gonzaga spends about 3 times what the Pilots spend, and have extra revenue that can go to other school programs.
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Post by up7587 on Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:46 am

Retain Porter, and I think revenue will decrease. The lower revenue goes, the longer it should take to build it back up. How much did ticket sales drop this season? Did Pilot Fund donations drop? Retaining Porter will not bring any of them back. And how many more will vote with their pocketbook and feet? Saving salary may have other budget impacts on revenue.
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default Life in the Jungle

Post by lomiton on Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:46 pm

/Sigh/

Loyal Pilots - we are going to have to call a spade a spade.

Being a D-1 school in any conference means that a certain amount of "financial reserve" needs to be either in the pocket or close at hand for those situations that one could not foresee.  Like the Terry Porter era.  Otherwise, one shouldn't be sitting at that particular poker table.

Not having the money to buy him out tells me we don't have the money to be playing D-1 basketball.  This is exactly what our friends in Spokane bitch about and you know what, they are correct.  Our school's athletic department isn't trying to become better, it's just leaching off the NCAA/WCC money pile.

To me, the blame needs to be placed squarely on the athletic department and school administration.  The fact that have done nothing to prepare for this (like finding booster money for example) is out and out malfeasance.  It is their job to provide the LIFE BLOOD of any D-1 program, not sitting around and waiting for Gonzaga to sign over their check.  If those people are not talented enough as fund raisers or talent evaluators, then get some people in those positions that are!  Board of Trustees...hello?!?!

I was disappointment when Porter was kept on last year, but I got it. Even if we belong at the "big boys" table we need to keep an eye on our resources.  But this year???  Please! If this is the best the Pilots can do we collectively need to scoop up of what is left of our marbles and join the GNAC. With Concordia out, UP can slot right in.

Personally, I wouldn't give $1 to the "Trailblazer Retirement Fund" until I knew that the AD and the President were moving elsewhere.  Otherwise it's a waste of resources.

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Post by dholcombe on Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:24 pm

Last I checked we had the highest advertising(or maybe it was worded sponsor) revenue for all sports combined in the wcc. Gonzaga obviously has total higher basketball revenue, but it's a very large stretch to say we should be leaving d1 imo.

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by optimist on Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:30 am

For the sake of the program, TP cannot come back next year. Even an interim coach for a year would be a far better solution than another year with him at the helm. Yes, the athletic Dept is responsible for this mess and should be held accountable (a bummer because so many UP sports programs are firing on all cylinders!). The fact they don't have the dollars for a buyout is scary. This whole situation is one giant mistake...it's time to fix it! Even if it is one small step at a time. And it starts with a new Pilot at the helm asap (ok, sorry, that was pretty cheesy but I couldn't help myself).

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Post by JimmAlacki on Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:25 am

If UP removes Porter, I would seriously reconsider my previous cancellation and I would purchase my 4 season tickets again

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by lomiton on Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:54 pm

dholcombe wrote:Last I checked we had the highest advertising(or maybe it was worded sponsor) revenue for all sports combined in the wcc. Gonzaga obviously has total higher basketball revenue, but it's a very large stretch to say we should be leaving d1 imo.

DH: My point isn't so much on the revenue generation side but rather what needs to be spent. The revenue generation matters because the claim (abet hearsay) is that we don't have the resources to do what everyone thinks needs to be done - which is to buy out Porter's contract and move on. What seems to be being said is "we would, but we can't afford it." If UP can't afford to do this (which in reality should have been done a year ago) then one has to question whether we have the resources to compete at the D-1 level.

It doesn't matter where the money comes from per se, what matters is that the athletic department has access to it to do what needs to be done.

I'm not going to argue sponsorship dollars vis-a-vis our conference peers - although I'd bet my life savings that BYU has the most of anyone in the WCC.

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default D!

Post by JimmAlacki on Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:59 pm

dholcombe wrote:Last I checked we had the highest advertising(or maybe it was worded sponsor) revenue for all sports combined in the wcc. Gonzaga obviously has total higher basketball revenue, but it's a very large stretch to say we should be leaving d1 imo.

UP left D1 basketball years ago, the problem is the fans don't realize it.

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by lomiton on Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:26 pm

JimmAlacki wrote: UP left D1 basketball years ago, the problem is the fans don't realize it.

James: Not sure where you come up with that conclusion.  A) The WCC is a Division-1 conference and the Pilots are a member. B) If you read this board you know darn well that the fans that are here at Pilot Nation know the struggle and have loyally supported the program regardless of the ineptitude shown by those in control.  In other words, better college hoop fans than most.

The issue for the board of trustees is simply this: are we losing because we are unlucky? Or don't have the right people in place (Admin and/or staff)?  Or losing is endemic to an institution that does not have and will not ever have the financial wherewithal to gather the resources to compete at its current level.  

If it's because of luck(?) - one grits one teeth and soldiers on
If it's because of people - one needs to make the changes no matter how difficult and consider it an investment in the future
If it's because of wherewithal - one should quit hitting their head against the wall and move toward an arena more conducive to its resources

Athletics is the front porch of almost all 4 year education institutions. Some have been able to completely rebuild the back of their house entirely by the success of what has gone on at the front porch.  Other institutions only have a front porch because its expected to have one.  Finally others have a front porch that looks like crap and it starts to effect the rest of the house.  

I wrote what I originally wrote because I think the answer is Portland DOES NOT have the right people in place but I am worried that in spite of that (or maybe because of that) that we drifted into the wherewithal range.  And with costs continuing to going up, betting on one of the Pilot Nation winning the lottery and investing it in Pilot hoops seems like an awfully risky proposition.

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default D1

Post by JimmAlacki on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:20 pm

lomiton wrote:
JimmAlacki wrote: UP left D1 basketball years ago, the problem is the fans don't realize it.

James: Not sure where you come up with that conclusion.  A) The WCC is a Division-1 conference and the Pilots are a member. B) If you read this board you know darn well that the fans that are here at Pilot Nation know the struggle and have loyally supported the program regardless of the ineptitude shown by those in control.  In other words, better college hoop fans than most.

The issue for the board of trustees is simply this: are we losing because we are unlucky? Or don't have the right people in place (Admin and/or staff)?  Or losing is endemic to an institution that does not have and will not ever have the financial wherewithal to gather the resources to compete at its current level.  

If it's because of luck(?) - one grits one teeth and soldiers on
If it's because of people - one needs to make the changes no matter how difficult and consider it an investment in the future
If it's because of wherewithal - one should quit hitting their head against the wall and move toward an arena more conducive to its resources

Athletics is the front porch of almost all 4 year education institutions. Some have been able to completely rebuild the back of their house entirely by the success of what has gone on at the front porch.  Other institutions only have a front porch because its expected to have one.  Finally others have a front porch that looks like crap and it starts to effect the rest of the house.  

I wrote what I originally wrote because I think the answer is Portland DOES NOT have the right people in place but I am worried that in spite of that (or maybe because of that) that we drifted into the wherewithal range.  And with costs continuing to going up, betting on one of the Pilot Nation winning the lottery and investing it in Pilot hoops seems like an awfully risky proposition.

Ok, you got me- what is the luck factor that you are referencing? This year's team is 7-20 against D1 teams. And that is exaggerating the listing of Incarnate Word, Cal Davis, Florida A&M as D1. Last year's team was about 5-25 against D1 teams. The problem is lack of talent, lack of coaching and an administration and athletic department that is seriously inferior.

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Post by SoCal_Pilot on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:22 pm

If Malcom doesn’t intend to stay I really don’t see why TP would have any incentive to stay past his salary, and I’m one to venture that he has plenty of cash so I really don’t see why he’d want to hang around.

P.S If the Pilots really have left D1 as Jimm claims and I didn’t notice this is REALLY embarrassing Wink

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by lomiton on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:39 pm

JimmAlacki wrote: Ok, you got me- what is the luck factor that you are referencing? This year's team is 7-20 against D1 teams. And that is exaggerating the listing of Incarnate Word, Cal Davis, Florida A&M as D1. Last year's team was about 5-25 against D1 teams. The problem is lack of talent, lack of coaching and an administration and athletic department that is seriously inferior.

James: Whenever I am taking stock of a situation, the first thing I look at is "am I on the right path." Sometimes bad luck or unrealistic expectations need to acknowledged, re-examined and addressed.

Of course, blaming luck can be a crutch for those that are afraid to address deeper issues. And to your point, it's really, really, hard to view UP men's basketball as a confluence of bad luck and unrealistic expectations.  History (and you only went back two years) tells us that is very doubtful.

I view lack of talent (or the developing of it) as a symptom of the problem. I don't think the results are necessarily on the players as they didn't put the team together.  The rest of your post...I'm not going to argue with you.  "Seriously inferior" about covers it.  

We'll see if we have to add the Board of Trustees to that list in a few weeks.

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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by Dean Murdoch on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:41 pm

JimmAlacki wrote:Ok, you got me- what is the luck factor that you are referencing? This year's team is 7-20 against D1 teams. And that is exaggerating the listing of Incarnate Word, Cal Davis, Florida A&M as D1. Last year's team was about 5-25 against D1 teams. The problem is lack of talent, lack of coaching and an administration and athletic department that is seriously inferior.

Lomiton is saying there's different reasons for ineptitude. Some schools can legitimately blame bad luck for their current lack of success (injuries, players going pro, guys flunking out, whatever). If you read his other posts in this thread, I doubt he would consider Portland to be one of the schools that have a case to put their woes in the "bad luck" category.
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default Re: Bringing Back Porter

Post by lomiton on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:44 pm

Dean Murdoch wrote:
JimmAlacki wrote:Ok, you got me- what is the luck factor that you are referencing? This year's team is 7-20 against D1 teams. And that is exaggerating the listing of Incarnate Word, Cal Davis, Florida A&M as D1. Last year's team was about 5-25 against D1 teams. The problem is lack of talent, lack of coaching and an administration and athletic department that is seriously inferior.

Lomiton is saying there's different reasons for ineptitude. Some schools can legitimately blame bad luck for their current lack of success (injuries, players going pro, guys flunking out, whatever). If you read his other posts in this thread, I doubt he would consider Portland to be one of the schools that have a case to put their woes in the "bad luck" category.

Dean-o, you said this much better (and shorter) than I did. I hope you are crossing your fingers for the School getting off the bench and actually doing something that makes a difference. I know I am...

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