Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:57 pm

Yikes, USF President. Confirming that the changes are intended to help GU/BYU/SMC, using the bottom 7 teams as pawns: "“We are confident that these innovative adjustments will enhance access to the NCAA Tournament for the best programs of our marquee sport,” said University of San Francisco President Rev. Paul Fitzgerald, Chair of the WCC Presidents’ Council."

https://www.sltrib.com/pb/sports/byu-cougars/2018/03/26/wcc-changes-basketball-schedules-conference-tournament-in-bid-to-boost-ncaa-profile-and-keep-gonzaga-will-they-work

Does he believe that USF will ever be one of these "best programs" that is in contention for access to the NCAA Tournament?

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by Dean Murdoch on Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:28 pm

Several of the new scheduling policies won't even have an effect on the Pilots.

• MTE every season - UP does this almost every year already. PK80 this past year, Wooden the year before, Corpus Christi before that, Nashville the year before that. 2013-14 was the last time they didn't have one of these.

• Approved "guarantee" games only - I had to look up the last time we had one of these. The recent Boise State & Colorado series were both home-and-homes. UNLV and Oregon State were home-and-homes. Honestly, I think you have to go back to Michigan State in November, 2013 for the last one of these the Pilots put on the schedule.

• More home games than away games - Two thoughts. As fans, who would be against this? As well, this doesn't even apply to the Pilots. Six straight seasons we've had more non-conference home games than away games - you've got to go all the way back to 2011-12 to find the last time the Pilots played more away non-con.

• No more than two non-Div. I opponents - We've been saying this for years on this board! I think all of us would rather see a home-and-home with a Big Sky rather than another boring drubbing over Walla Walla.

Obviously the two big ones that do affect the Pilots are the change to the schedule and the tournament. I'm guessing BYU, GU, and SMC will all continue to play each other twice. If the Pilots are going to lose a game against the historical top three teams, it'll probably be against SMC or away at BYU. You better believe they're going to handpick the games, and Gonzaga won't want to lose its yearly opportunity to play in front of a neutral crowd at Chiles on fertile recruiting ground.

Negative feedback about the tournament change on here so far but I don't entirely hate it. The new format places a huge importance on the regular season, and I'm fine with that. The chances of a low seed getting the auto-bid in the WCC is close to zero in the current format, and the new format putting those odds even closer to zero for the lower seeds I don't think is the biggest deal in the world.

Edit: I am guessing the driving force behind the tournament change is not primarily to stop upsets, but the opportunity to drop an "RPI drainer" from the schedule. If you simply drop SMC's win over Pepperdine in the WCC quarters, that alone would have lifted the Gaels from 40 RPI up five spots to 35. I very much understand why this can be a benefit for the #1 and #2 seeds....but now, we go back to NoPo's point earlier in this thread. We're changing everything for the benefit of the big dogs, but the "big dog" is inexplicably putting Howard and Incarnate Word on the schedule which drags down RPI worse than any WCC team ever could.


Last edited by Dean Murdoch on Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by up7587 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:31 pm

NoPoNeighbor wrote:Does he believe that USF will ever be one of these "best programs" that is in contention for access to the NCAA Tournament?

Actually, I am pretty sure USF believes that SMC's success is not sustainable, and they see themselves as the natural school to replace them. They have better history, location and facilities than SMC. Their endowment is twice as big, they have almost 3 times as many students, and they have over 5 times the academic staff when you include part timers. Bigger alumni base. Jesuits > Christian Brothers. And their mascot is a Spanish nobleman, not a Scots-Irish Highlander.
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by up7587 on Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:15 pm

blacksheep wrote:Gonzaga has hit the jackpot with Mark Few.  Not only is he a once in a generation hall of fame coach, but he loves Spokane (only God knows why).  Any other coach at Gonzaga would have left years ago with Few's resume.  When Mark Few retires, Gonzaga is going to go back to having all the same problems the rest of us have.  Even if the next coach is decent, he's not going to be Mark Few.  If he does has success, he's likely going to leave for more pay at a better program.  I know Gonzaga fans think it will last forever, but it won't.  Just ask Oregon Duck football fans what happens when your once in a generation coach leaves.  

Like, for example, Xavier?  Coach gets them a #1 seed, he gone.
https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/3/27/17145064/chris-mack-louisville-head-coach-xavier-david-padgett
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by DoubleDipper on Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:39 pm

up7587 wrote:Like, for example, Xavier?  Coach gets them a #1 seed, he gone.
For a reported $4,000,000 per year for 7 years.... Shocked
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by bullwinkle on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:32 pm

Thanks to all of you for the great analytics you've all done. It's a fascinating read as you build on each other's work. I haven't done any analysis. I'd just offer support for the bottom line - I'd rather be in a conference that offers the opportunity for any team to walk away with a NCAA bid, than to continue contortions of every matter for a team, coach, and fan-base that will never be appreciative. I wish the presidents put a higher priority on what their fans would like instead of the gold dangling on a line with conditions and demands that don't really help most of us.

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by PilotNut on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:39 pm

I wish this would all light a fire in our fans, administration and athletic department to make the commitments necessary, relative to our peers, to be one of the top 3 or 4 teams, so as to reap these benefits.

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by dholcombe on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:30 pm

If I had my way with the conference tournament the 9 and 10 teams wouldn't play at all. Our if you really want to keep the 1 from playing the 8 then still use a play in game and have teams 7-10 stay home. Make staying out of the cellar meaningful in that to even have a hope of a miracle tournament room you have to not stink it up during conference play.

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by wrv on Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:29 am

bullwinkle wrote:Thanks to all of you for the great analytics you've all done.  It's a fascinating read as you build on each other's work.  I haven't done any analysis.

I don't think there were much if any "analytics" proffered, but I am no expert.

Regardless, I am with those who do not believe these changes, described as massive, make much difference to Portland unless they hasten a departure from D!. We have not been particularly competitive under the prior rules. We seem permanently ensconced in the lower half of this league, even dead last often, and also seem to be without realistic post season possibilities.

I worry that we may find it difficult to attract enough D1 competition to comply with these rules, and more home games at that, and that the athletic budget will be stretched even further attempting to meet the new rules. Maybe the bottom line is the program not to be named believes these rules will be difficult for us to comply with and hence hasten our own departure from this league.

The worst case scenario, even if unlikely, would be if the league disbanded and then reformed. As the weak sister we be might left out. Better that we accommodate the program not to be named and BYU than to lose our current place in this league which enables us to compete at the D1 level, at least for a time still.

The most important impediment to success is our small size, small student population. Despite the impressive individuals who have led the Pilot program in various sports, our financial resources impair our ability to compete at the D1 level.

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by DoubleDipper on Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:54 am

up7587 wrote:Actually, I am pretty sure USF believes that SMC's success is not sustainable, and they see themselves as the natural school to replace them.  They have better history, location and facilities than SMC.  Their endowment is twice as big, they have almost 3 times as many students, and they have over 5 times the academic staff when you include part timers. Bigger alumni base.  Jesuits > Christian Brothers.  And their mascot is a Spanish nobleman, not a Scots-Irish Highlander.
Next year, and for years to come, it's a good bet USF will compete with SMC and BYU, and possibly one day with GU.

Monday against North Texas, USF looked like a Final-Four team in the first half while hitting 12 3-pointers, and they return everyone next season except Chase Foster.  Meanwhile, SMC will be in a bit of a rebuild with four of their top players graduating....although they are restocking with Kiwis and Aussies.

Not only that, but USF is in the midst of a campaign to renovate the all the athletic facilities and build a new, state-of-art training/practice facility. Included in the renovation is an expansion of War Memorial Gym to include suites for those with deep pockets.
Stephen A. Privett, S.J., President, University of San Francisc wrote: “Our goal is to build a model Jesuit intercollegiate athletic program at the University of San Francisco. To achieve this goal, our student athletes and coaches need athletic facilities to put them on equal footing with our WCC competitors."  
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by blacksheep on Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:04 am

DoubleDipper wrote:

Not only that, but USF is in the midst of a campaign to renovate the all the athletic facilities and build a new, state-of-art training/practice facility. Included in the renovation is an expansion of War Memorial Gym to include suites for those with deep pockets.


I've always wondered what it would take to add suites to Chiles. Seems to me it would be pretty simple to get rid of the upper level of stands and add suites. It would reduce capacity, but how often is it full anyway? I prefer to watch games from the stands and not a suite, so it's not something that I would use, but it's interesting to think about.
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by SouthCarolinaPilot on Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:31 pm

blacksheep wrote:
DoubleDipper wrote:

Not only that, but USF is in the midst of a campaign to renovate the all the athletic facilities and build a new, state-of-art training/practice facility. Included in the renovation is an expansion of War Memorial Gym to include suites for those with deep pockets.


I've always wondered what it would take to add suites to Chiles.  Seems to me it would be pretty simple to get rid of the upper level of stands and add suites.  It would reduce capacity, but how often is it full anyway?  I prefer to watch games from the stands and not a suite, so it's not something that I would use, but it's interesting to think about.  

I have actually thought about this a lot. I wish we could remove the upper level pull out bleachers and replace those with seats that go all the way up to the edge (rather than have the walkway in front of the seats). You would have to build the little tunnels to the seats which takes some out. Get curtains like in the Rose Garden and all other big venues to cover up the empty portions we don't sell.

The upper level corners are the real potential since they don't have seats. If you could build a small suite in each corner then that would be sufficient. But, you have to do so without blocking the stairways to the lower levels or impeding the general flow of traffic (i.e., point the staircases from the track-level to the upper level seats the other direction). Four might even be too many. Gonzaga has only 6 suites for reference.

Otherwise, I agree with Blacksheep that the upper level seats on the sidelines could be removed on one side for suites. That is the approach USF appears to be taking. In any of these scenarios, you lose seats, though.

But, we all digress...
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by PilotNut on Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:45 pm

blacksheep wrote:
DoubleDipper wrote:

Not only that, but USF is in the midst of a campaign to renovate the all the athletic facilities and build a new, state-of-art training/practice facility. Included in the renovation is an expansion of War Memorial Gym to include suites for those with deep pockets.


I've always wondered what it would take to add suites to Chiles.  Seems to me it would be pretty simple to get rid of the upper level of stands and add suites.  It would reduce capacity, but how often is it full anyway?  I prefer to watch games from the stands and not a suite, so it's not something that I would use, but it's interesting to think about.  

I agree that there may be some space in the corners; the suites could be similar to the existing sound booth?  Also, once the new Franz track is built, I assume that would free up the Chiles track footprint to be utilized differently.  

While UP certainly has a lot of good things going on facilities-wise right now (baseball, Franz campus, recently completed Beauchamp Center)... I would love to see a dedicated public campaign to address general athletics funding along with any needed facility improvements, with a special consideration of the basketball programs.  

Do I think the men's program is getting better?  That has yet to be proven out under Coach Porter, but indicators are positive (next season will be a good judge of this), but other schools in the conference are also getting better.  What I am not convinced of, is are we getting better at a faster rate than others... what are we doing better/faster/smarter than our WCC peers?  Not only do we need to keep pace, we need to make up ground to get from the cellar to the top half of the conference.  Are we?

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by SouthCarolinaPilot on Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:05 pm

PilotNut wrote:Do I think the men's program is getting better?  That has yet to be proven out under Coach Porter, but indicators are positive (next season will be a good judge of this), but other schools in the conference are also getting better.  What I am not convinced of, is are we getting better at a faster rate than others... what are we doing better/faster/smarter than our WCC peers?  Not only do we need to keep pace, we need to make up ground to get from the cellar to the top half of the conference.  Are we?

This is the key point that I believe in. I wish I could upvote this, but I will just quote it and repost it for emphasis.
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by wrv on Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:22 pm

Picking up on the extent of recruiting of Jacob, this was reported on the JucoRecruiting.com twitter account on November 21, 2017:

Jacob Tryon (7’0, Forward) of East LA College drawing interest from Washington St, New Mexico St, Utah St, San Jose St & Portland. Qualifier with 3 years to play

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:45 am

P-Nut wrote:Do I think the men's program is getting better?  That has yet to be proven out under Coach Porter, but indicators are positive (next season will be a good judge of this

For reference, Reveno won 19, 21,and 20 games starting in his third year.
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by lomiton on Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:44 pm

Thanks for this thread - a lot of decent input here.  I can see the various sides as to what this means (or doesn't mean) to the Pilots but to me it's like sitting at the poker table and the ante just went up.  Way up. Neither Gonzaga or BYU really had any other realistic choice here - football-less and small arena'd GU does not realistically fit in the MWC and the only way BYU goes to the MWC is with their football team in tow - which would be a total "white flag" move for them.  Conversely, the rest of WCC really doesn't want to ween off the NCAA mother's milk so they ultimately they are going to do (and I think did do) as they are told.  

Guess we will see if this is a good move for all the parties involved but one thing I think everyone can agree on is that it's imperative that the Pilots get improving at a faster clip.  I'm not sure that everyone currently affiliated with the conference is going to have the wherewithal to stick around in the long term.  A dynamic winning men's basketball program is going to play a big part in that going forward.  

Good luck to the Pilot athletic department - it's game on.

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by Stonehouse on Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:13 pm

up7587 wrote:Jesuits > Christian Brothers.

Ahem... as a proud graduate of a LaSallian high school, I will not accept such slander!!! Wink
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by Stonehouse on Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:25 pm

PilotNut wrote:Also, once the new Franz track is built, I assume that would free up the Chiles track footprint to be utilized differently.

There's also a new indoor track at the Beauchamp Center... I'm not sure how much that is or isn't being used by athletics. I know that ROTC often uses the Chiles track for training.

Regarding doing something else with the bleachers... I think that's an idea people have played around with for a while, but the fact of the matter is that those bleachers make up more than half of the seating capacity of the building. That is a lot of lost revenue for the big games, and it would make large events like UP and high school graduations, the OSAA tournament, etc. basically impossible to host.

I definitely agree that putting something where the "upper reserved" seating is would be a lot more doable, but I feel like there are bigger fish to fry for UP athletics... namely replacing some of the stands in Merlo Field.
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by up7587 on Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:22 am

Stonehouse wrote:
up7587 wrote:Jesuits > Christian Brothers.

Ahem... as a proud graduate of a LaSallian high school, I will not accept such slander!!!  Wink

Ditto. I was channeling what a USF supporter/administrator would think. Wink
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by Sound Voltex on Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:52 pm

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:42 pm

Sound Voltex wrote:Looks like the Zags might be staying put next season.
Too bad. The WCC schools have sold themselves out in order to keep Gonzaga. Or, in other words, in order to keep themselves out of the NCAA tournament indefinitely.

Where would Loyola-Chicago be if Wichita St hadn't left the MVC before this year? They would have been in the NIT, not the Final Four.

College sports don't have built-in mechanisms to promote parity, like professional leagues do (salary caps, draft picks, revenue sharing), so the only way to keep dominant mid-major teams from dominating at the expense of their conference-mates is for those dominant teams to move on up: Creighton, Butler, Wichita, VCU... The rest of the WCC will be better off when Gonzaga follows suit.

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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by wrv on Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:48 am

NoPoNeighbor wrote:
Sound Voltex wrote:Looks like the Zags might be staying put next season.
Too bad. The WCC schools have sold themselves out in order to keep Gonzaga. Or, in other words, in order to keep themselves out of the NCAA tournament indefinitely.

Where would Loyola-Chicago be if Wichita St hadn't left the MVC before this year? They would have been in the NIT, not the Final Four.

College sports don't have built-in mechanisms to promote parity, like professional leagues do (salary caps, draft picks, revenue sharing), so the only way to keep dominant mid-major teams from dominating at the expense of their conference-mates is for those dominant teams to move on up: Creighton, Butler, Wichita, VCU... The rest of the WCC will be better off when Gonzaga follows suit.

Ditto. Let em go. I am not sure these changes benefit Portland or for that matter other members of the conference.

Welcome Chieftans or, ah, Redhawks.


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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by up7587 on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:03 am


The second article makes it look like GU wasn't through leveraging their threats of leaving to gain more concessions from the WCC. Maybe the MWC commissioner was tired of being played.
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Re: Massive Changes to WCC Men's Basketball!

Post by bullwinkle on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:07 am



What a relief!!  He's such a good boyfriend.  I know he puts me down all the time and takes advantage of me, but he has so much money!  I'll just do anything to hold on to him.

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