Where do we go from here?

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:34 am

DoubleDipper wrote:
blacksheep wrote:I sure am going to miss you yelling at Rex all game.  
Yeah, I gotta admit, I usually only exercise enough to get my heart rate up three times per year, once when Keating is in town, once when Walters is here, and at least once on my birthday! Razz
Well you must be relieved by these two firings. Keating and Walters always visited on the same weekend!

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:45 am

A few more arguments in favor of keeping Reveno:

- With Keating and Walters gone, SCU and USF figure to be facing rebuilding years for a season or two. This gives UP a chance to move up in the standings (both schools finished ahead of us this year). The only teams that finished below UP this year were the two that are knee-deep in the post-coaching-change rebuild process (USD and LMU). If we fire Reveno, we are in the same boat as they are.

- As others have noted, SCU and USF could be competing for the same kind of coach that UP would like.

- We have a few good players coming back next season: Wintering, Johnson, Tyson... If Reveno goes, what happens to them? AND, what happens to Maker? (Any word on his academic progress? Is he on track to be eligible to play next season?)

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by Dean Murdoch on Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:59 am

Slightly off topic - but this has to be the most constructive discussion I've ever seen on any online forum for a group of fans that are mostly disgruntled with the shape of a program. Solid contributions from 16 posters and counting, quality points raised on many sides of the issue.

There's no single, easy answer and I think all of us here recognize that.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by DoubleDipper on Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:03 pm

Terry Cahill wrote:Slightly off topic - but this has to be the most constructive discussion I've ever seen on any online forum for a group of fans that are mostly disgruntled with the shape of a program. Solid contributions from 16 posters and counting, quality points raised on many sides of the issue.
I was commenting to my wife this morning how civilized and well thought out the responses to this thread have been......

She responded by asking, "Has Mighty Mouth Mac 65 written anything?"  I laughed pretty hard and asked, "Do you mean mikemac65?"  To which she replied, "Whatever." Razz

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by blacksheep on Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:20 pm

Terry Cahill wrote:Slightly off topic - but this has to be the most constructive discussion I've ever seen on any online forum for a group of fans that are mostly disgruntled with the shape of a program. Solid contributions from 16 posters and counting, quality points raised on many sides of the issue.

There's no single, easy answer and I think all of us here recognize that.

I hope you aren't counting my posts in that number drunken

I have actually started a serious post about 3 times, but never hit the send button.  Maybe one of these times I will like what I type and hit the button.

BTW - Welcome back Stoney!

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by Geezaldinho on Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:26 pm

NoPoNeighbor wrote:

- We have a few good players coming back next season: Wintering, Johnson, Tyson... If Reveno goes, what happens to them? AND, what happens to Maker? (Any word on his academic progress? Is he on track to be eligible to play next season?)

Maker has been back in Australia since Christmas break. I don't think his issue was academic, and he won't be eligible until second semester next year, if ever.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by DoubleDipper on Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:56 pm

Geezaldinho wrote:Maker has been back in Australia since Christmas break. I don't think his issue was academic, and he won't be eligible until second semester next year, if ever.
Before there is a lot of speculation, it should be known that Chier's situation is both personal and private.

His first semester grades were actually quite good, but just after finals in December he returned to Australia and has subsequently traveled to South Sudan and Kenya to visit his very close family.

It is unknown if he will return to UP, but he is eligible to do so.  As far as I know he has not asked for his release to sign with another school and he has not turned professional. As stated above, if he does return to UP, and because he missed an entire semester of school, he will not be eligible to compete until second semester of the 2016-2017 school year.....just in time for WCC play.

As I said at the outset, Chier's situation is both personal and private....the only reason I am writing about it here is to tamp down speculation and discussion that could only hinder Chier's desire to return to UP.


Last edited by DoubleDipper on Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling!)

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Where do we go from here?

Post by Oldfan on Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:28 pm

My understanding is that he can practice with the team next fall, but cannot compete until spring semester.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by upbasketball544 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:21 am

This board, as well as the University of Portland, like to scream from the bell tower regarding the "UP culture", the entire Chier Maker situation and aftermath have me questioning the adherence to this "UP culture" they speak on.

First off, in no way is Chier Maker a victim . This is "both personal and private" for those he affected, not the other way around. There is no need to get into the details. As that is not my place. However the players, their families and the UP program know the truth. Chier is not, nor was he ever a victim!

Everyone likes to indicate he was in fine academic standing, you have to ask what would cause the University of Portland to not allow Chier to be on campus this second semester? Again I repeat. Chier is not the victim, and any written or spoken work to insinuate that, is an agenda done only to control the narrative. Chier violated the "UP culture" that most posters and the University tout as showing the quality and level of UP basketball. Those who choose to spin this, and create a new narrative have also chosen to violate the very same culture they praise as being the standard for the University and its basketball program.

I do believe in second chances. The opportunity to become a better citizen, to improve yourself and correct your mistakes. That is accomplished by being accountable, and if choosing to speak on the situation; doing so honestly. Chier's return should be based on his ability to accept and fulfill what the "UP culture" truly is. Furthermore he should exhibit those things that come with growth and  true atonement......humility, dedication, and the desire to be better. However, painting him as a victim, pulling out the red carpet and heading to Australia to "re-recruit" Chier is not only a bad look, it is also counter to the "UP culture" that everyone consistently speaks and harps on.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by DoubleDipper on Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:51 am

All indications are that it is 99% sure that Steve Lavin will be the new coach at USF.

Coach Lavin, the former head coach at UCLA and St. Johns, was born in SF and played at SF State.  His late dad, "Cap," is in the USF Athletic HOF, so it would seem a good match and a good choice.

With a very high profile coach such as Lavin coming to USF and the possibility SCU is pursuing high profile coach and SCU alum, Kurt Rambis, UP is going to have to really step up its recruiting game if the school is going to have any chance of staying competitive in the WCC.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:58 am

Well no matter what happened with Maker, I hope that everyone involved is in good care. Sounds like a situation that is far more important than the fate of UP basketball.

In any case, I was wondering if Maker might serve as a sort of insurance policy for Reveno, protecting him from being fired. Sounds like that might not be the case.

I was curious where UP stood vis a vis the other WCC teams during Reveno's tenure. When comparing only the 8 teams that have been part of the conference for Reveno's entire tenure, UP is second-worst in average conference finish. Only LMU is worse, and they made a coaching change two years ago. The next four teams above UP have also made coaching changes during the Reveno era.

SCHOOL; AVG FINISH '07-'16 (avg of 8.8 teams/year)
GU; 1.1
SMC; 2.0
(BYU; 2.6)
USF; 4.5
SCU; 5.3
Pepp; 5.8
USD; 5.8
UP; 5.9
LMU; 7.2
(Pac; 8.0)

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by PilotNut on Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:39 pm

It would appear that SCU and USF will be significantly increasing the profile of their coaches & programs. If we do not act, the hole that we have been trying to dig ourselves out of for decades might be getting a whole let deeper...

It sure would be nice to some day be out of the hole and for once making other programs try to catch up to where we are.


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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by Geezaldinho on Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:45 pm

PilotNut wrote:It would appear that SCU and USF will be significantly increasing the profile of their coaches & programs.  If we do not act, the hole that we have been trying to dig ourselves out of for decades might be getting a whole let deeper...

It sure would be nice to some day be out of the hole and for once making other programs try to catch up to where we are.  


Make no mistake.  it is those programs who are currently in your "hole".

That's why they are pledging to significantly increased profiles,etc.

We do have to increase our commitment or fall behind, no question. D1 is a business. I'm not just talking about the finances of the athletic department, but rather what It means to the profile of the University as a whole.need to stop treating it like Intramurals.

When Larry Williams came in, fr. Beauchamp and he made a commitment to Basketball and W. soccer as the two programs to focus on, and for a while we did. But the last couple years haven't shown that same outward commitment.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by up7587 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:25 pm

DoubleDipper wrote:With a very high profile coach such as Lavin coming to USF and the possibility SCU is pursuing high profile coach and SCU alum, Kurt Rambis, UP is going to have to really step up its recruiting game if the school is going to have any chance of staying competitive in the WCC.

I don't know if being "high profile" guarantees any success. Wasn't Larry Steele high profile back in the day? After UCLA fired Ben Howland, they pursued Steve Alford, a high profile coach. Three years later, fans are calling for his head.

Rambis has never coached in college, and he was paid $1.2M to be an assistant in the NBA. SCU is going to match that?

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by wrv on Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:37 am

DoubleDipper wrote:All indications are that it is 99% sure that Steve Lavin will be the new coach at USF.


With a very high profile coach such as Lavin coming to USF and the possibility SCU is pursuing high profile coach and SCU alum, Kurt Rambis, UP is going to have to really step up its recruiting game if the school is going to have any chance of staying competitive in the WCC.

I doubt we go high profile. Do we even have the resources?

We more likely go moneyball.

Lest we get ahead of ourselves do not forget Reveno’s coaching corpse at the U is still warm, breathing and anticipating a future as a D1 head coach.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by DoubleDipper on Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:17 am

wrv wrote:Lest we get ahead of ourselves do not forget Reveno’s coaching corpse at the U is still warm, breathing and anticipating a future as a D1 head coach.
Absolutely!

Now....who of us can help Rev identify an eligible and talented BIG man he can bring to UP! ?

This past season has certainly made us appreciate having once watched the likes of Luke and Kramer, and Rhino and Thomas.  Really,  guys like that could easily jump-start the program right now at a time it really needs it.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by NoPoNeighbor on Sat Mar 12, 2016 12:43 pm

With what we know today about next year's roster, I'd predict next season's squad to be even worse than this year's. We lose Bryce, which is a huge loss. Now that Maker's future is uncertain at best, we have zero incoming "difference makers." A net loss.

A saves-the-day recruit would be nice, but as of now the only open spot is the one that Reveno is apparently "re-recruiting" Maker for.

I don't foresee Barreno or Hartwhich making big strides in the offseason. I think we've more or less seen the ceiling of their potential.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by mikemac65 on Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:09 pm

Geez, DD, that was a nice cheap shot!
Oh, I forgot, you are the major conduit of knowledge on PN.
Since, Rev's first season I've questioned his conditioning. Every season, the Pilots run out of gas.

Inbounds plays, wow they run it so consistently well.
Signing players that fit nowhere and disappear, some under questionable circumstances!
Comeback wins, too few and far between, hence a miserable overall coaching record.
Nice guy, definitely. Good coach, not consisten
So much for being a loud mouth...er, I don't opine nearly close to to the amount that you spew forth!🚾

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by wrv on Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:35 am

NoPoNeighbor wrote:With what we know today about next year's roster, I'd predict next season's squad to be even worse than this year’s.

But of course even if you are right and no one improves next year, your proposed solution, firing our coach and hiring a new one, does nothing to improve our chances for next year.

More importantly, a change in coaches risks an unanticipated defection or two: how would the Pilots fare without Wintering, who still has his redshirt year to use if he were to transfer.

MikeMac65, your point of view has been treated with respect by all posters . . .

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by bullwinkle on Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:08 am

Three things:
1.  I'm curious about how the 100% graduation rate is calculated.  Every year we have one or two players leave the team (entirely on their own or with "guidance" from a coach about how to increase their playing time).  Are they followed to see if they graduate  or are these "defections" out of the calculation?   I wonder how many there have been in ten years?
2.  I figure if we had a new coach, there is a 1/3 chance our record would be better next year, 1/3 it would be the same, and 1/3 it would be worse.   But even if you take the most pessimistic view, and it's worse, it's not a very big fall.  Remember, we were in a three way tie for 7th, 8th, and 9th this year.  
3.  I went through the contributions in this thread to see where people stand.  I did my best to interpret intent with some.  I ended up with four categories:
4 people want to keep Rev
4 want a new coach
4 are non-committal, but leaning toward new a new coach
7 are non-committal
I agree that it been a very constructive discussion, though civility has its limits.   It's why I like reading the USF board occasionally - wanna see who is arguing with whom and whether it's just in the family or they're arguing with St Mary's.  Nothing like a little mud-slinging to keep your attention.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by SoCalPilot on Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:28 am

I am in the "Keep Rev" camp.  I think his conduct, as well as the team's conduct and the graduation rate, deserve recognition.  My big concern, however, is this reputation he has of being a "big man coach."  It's a major hindrance to winning here at UP.  The best big man we've seen in a while is Thomas VanDerMars.  How much did the Pilots win with him? Not much.
Rev is moving toward the formula for winning at UP but needs to do it more quickly.  The formula is SMALL BALL.  We have Barreno, a Division II or NAIA player who shouldn't have been recruited (see my post of last year), Hartwich, who can only run the floor and block shots and now Smoyer, who I fear will be as bad as these other two.  These are wasted scholarships, given only in the hope that they will develop into something good.  These scholarships would have been better spent on players more like Jarrel Marshall, who is no world beater, but is a versatile and athletic player with some skills.
Even without Maker, I believe this team can be significantly better next year.  It just takes continued adjustment by the coach.  Starting Wintering, Johnson, Tyson, Marshall and Taylor gives us a small lineup but arguably the best shooting and one of the most athletic lineups in the conference. Then we can bring energy guys off the bench like Todd and Jackson to full court press with Hartwich defending the basket. This new exciting brand will help recruiting.
Recruiting these big guys hasn't worked!  It's time to press and run and shoot.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by DoubleDipper on Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:56 am

Basically, NCAA D1 schools use the Graduation Rate (GSR) to account for student-athletes who transfer in and out of institutions over a 6 year period that begins their freshman year.

Using the GSR, student-athletes who depart a school while in good academic standing (would have met NCAA's and the school's progress toward a degree) are essentially passed from the original school's cohort to another school's cohort.  

On the other hand, student-athletes who depart in poor academic standing (their GPA or credit accumulation does not have them on track to graduate in 5 years) are deemed non-graduates.

The basic assumption is the student-athlete's primary purpose of attending college is to graduate.  If the student-athlete transfers in good academic standing and graduates from a four-year institution within 6 years of his/her initial enrollment at a four-year school, they have met the NCAA's requirement for graduation under the GSR formula.

The main point here is the NCAA does not treat transfers as academic failures and does not penalize colleges whose student-athletes transfer in good standing.  Those student-athletes are essentially moved from the original college's cohort to the student-athlete's new institution for accounting purposes.

Bottom line.....if a student-athlete in good academic standing transfers from UP to another institution, UP is no longer responsible, for GSR purposes, for that student athlete....instead the new institution is now responsible.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by DoubleDipper on Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:30 am

SoCalPilot....I believe you are spot-on in your assessment.

At this point I'm quite sure Rev and his staff are also well aware of their recruiting failures at the post position. I think it is accurate to say UP does not currently have a D1 caliber post player, nor is it likely next year's addition is D1 caliber either....and that is a recruiting failure.  (I am not including Colin Russell in this assessment as it is just too soon to tell how well he will develop, but I really appreciate his energy!)

Will a position open up for next year to bring in a D1 post player?  Would Rev consider bringing a 5th year senior?  Is Rev's reputation as a "big man coach" (I assume he'd rather be called simply a coach) sufficient to attract a D1 caliber post player?  There are some very good players currently being recruited by UP, but are any of them D1 post players?

At the OSAA 6A Championships at the Chiles Center this past week I saw at least one post and a wing who could probably start for UP in pretty short order.  South Salem's big guy, Christian Russell, is 6-11 and BIG, and is very tough inside. Maybe not a great jumper, but he appeared a better player than UP's incoming recruit from the games I've watched both play.  The impressive wing, also from South Salem, is 6-7 Khalid Thomas.  Man, he can really go to the hoop!

IMO, UP's recent inability to fully evaluate recruits, especially post players, is at the crux of its recent tied for 7th position in the WCC.  We know they should do better, I'm quite sure the staff will agree.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by PilotNut on Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:22 pm

I have to think we will hear something soon... with spring break over today, I would think we will get an announcement one way or the other in the next few days.

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Re: Where do we go from here?

Post by Dean Murdoch on Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:15 am

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/mar/13/blanchette-chilling-lesson-for-wcc/

Few got after the WCC here! A couple quotes -

“Our league needs to really step back and take notice,” he said. “It’s time for some of these other institutions to start picking it up. They’re really dragging the top three down.”

“We need to talk long and hard about (NCAA Tournament) money distribution that we’re making for the league,” Few said, “and if they’re not spending it on basketball, we don’t need to be sponsoring swimming at those schools or whatever they’ve got going. They’re not all in.”

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