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Next 6 games

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Dean Murdoch
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Post by NoPoNeighbor Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:37 pm

I agree completely, PilotSpectator. "Spectator" is indeed how most UP "fans" (short for fanatics!) behave at the Chiles Center. Sitting quietly as if they were at home on the couch, watching the game on TV. This is live, in-person D-I basketball! Let's go!

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Post by NoPoNeighbor Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:42 pm

While I am not happy with what Reveno has been able to accomplish with the program in 9 years, there would be some real drawbacks to sacking him. One big concern: What happens to the great recruits we have coming in, and our talented underclassmen?

LMU is an instructive case. Max Good had one of the top recruiting classes in the conference coming in for this season, and a STRONG group of young guys already on the roster. Many of the guys on the team then transferred, and the recruits de-committed, when Good was fired.

In regards to the question of attendance and the program's relevance in the city and region... I don't think it is fair to make those things part of the evaluation of a coach's performance. UP's failures there should be placed on the shoulders of others in the athletic department. Of course, increased attendance and attention to the program would make the coach's job a heck of a lot easier, in terms of recruiting and winning games at home.

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Post by PilotNut Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:08 pm

Good points, NPN.  I think many programs are too quick to fire a coach and go looking for the next best person.  I think the Athletic Dept needs to have a high confidence level that if they make a change, it is in fact an upgrade (and not taking a wild chance on an unproven candidate).  LMU over the past 5 or 6 seasons has been an example of how NOT to handle coaching changes.  Remember the Bayno fiasco?  Then again, LMU had a very bare cupboard coming into this season, yet they beat us and USF, and have been competitive (Many 1st-year coaches, including Rev, are not their first season).

I will disagree a bit on the attendance issue... The head coach is responsible for the basketball program, and for developing an entertaining brand of basketball that people will pay to come see.  While there are many other factors and restraints within the Athletic Dept., IMO, that is primarily the Coach's job.  Clearly the A.D. is very involved, but the untimate responsibility for results lies on the head coach's shoulders.

Rev has not developed a brand of basketball that is exciting, contagious or drawing attention, in spite of the Athletic Department paying for foreign trips, all the recruiting budget he asks for (trips to Europe and Australia?!), expanded/renovated facilities, increased pay for Assistants, etc.

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Post by Stonehouse Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:08 pm

Not making any sort of comment one way or another, but I thought it might be illustrative to look at the enrollment and 2014-15 attendance averages of other WCC schools:

BYU - 34,100 - 16,379
USF - 10,017 - 1,524
LMU - 8,972 - 1,699
SCU - 8,300 - 1,441
USD - 7,548 - 1,933
GON - 7,229 - 6,422
PAC - 6,652 - 2,260
PEP - 6,000 - 1,416
SMC - 4,768 - 2,758
POR - 3,200 - 2,095

We're far and away the smallest school by undergrad enrollment (which, don't forget, also means we're far and away the smallest school in terms of alumni), yet we're 5th overall in average attendance. And I bet if they did a breakdown of student attendance, we'd be right there at #5 or even higher - they may not make a lot of noise (which is frustrating), but our students actually do show up in pretty good numbers.

Do I wish we were doing better? Of course. Could pretty much all the WCC schools that aren't Gonzaga or BYU be doing better? Absolutely.

Keep in mind that low student attendance for college sports is not an isolated issue, and it's certainly not unique to UP.

Even Duke has been forced to sell Cameron Crazies tickets: http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2012/01/24/low-attendance-forces-duke-athletics-sell-student-seats#.VMXIef7F-So

Kentucky has had problems with basketball student attendance too: http://kentuckysportsradio.com/basketball-2/examining-the-low-student-attendance-epidemic/

And attendance is plummeting for football, even at "Big Five" conferences: http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-college-football-games-student-sections-likely-to-have-empty-seats-1409188244

And of course these problems are magnified for mid-majors, which don't have superstars or nationally ranked teams and can rarely get marquee opponents to play in their gyms.

We were lucky to have Oregon State at Chiles this year, but it'll probably never happen again in the near future. When's the last time Oregon, Washington, Washington State, or any other Pac-12 team (heck, even Mountain West team!) has played in Chiles? Those games are few and far between.

And think about this - every single one of our home games are either broadcast online or shown on TV. It's pretty easy for a fan who might otherwise go to 4-5 games a year go to only 2-3 instead and watch online instead - don't have to deal with I5 traffic, parking, etc.

Again, I'm not saying we couldn't be doing better. I'm just saying that it's not like UP is an outlier in struggling with this, and a lot of the challenges are out of our control. Fact of the matter is that it's tough out there for everyone - even blue bloods like Duke and Kentucky.
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Post by PilotNut Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:22 pm

Good info, Stonehouse.  Its good to remind ourselves (myself?!) that attendance at sporting events is down across the country.  I also don't want that to be a crutch/excuse to think we can't do better.  

If you take away the GU and OSU games, what was our average attendance?  (I would argue that most of the increase over the average of all other games for these 2 games was largely Beav and Zag fans).  Our true average must be closer to 1,400, which would be at the bottom end of the spectrum.  

Attendance was trending upward in the 2-3 years that we did well... if we were able to sustain a few years of doing well, I think the fans would come in larger numbers; the problem is, we keep falling back down to the bottom of the conference standings.  If we were to win with any regularity, more people would show up.  

Side note: The attendance at the Pacific game was exceptionally low--does anyone know why that game in particular seemed low?

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Post by Geezaldinho Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:40 am

It's not good math to subtract the Gonzaga's or OSU's gates  unless you do the same for the top attendances with the other schools.  

I agree that attendance follows success. Maybe the Week before in CA put some people off from the effort.  But that might not even be it. I hear BYU hasn't done that well during the week either.

Thursday games don't draw all that well anyway.  Students have classes, adults work. Even the students that did show came late. The student section was about 8 people during the Anthem. Maybe they need to eat.  Some people hang out in pubs, I hear. ( ahem)

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And there is only 200-250 difference in any of the Thursday games this year.

And having Saturday midday games doesn't help attendance totals , either.


And maybe we don't yet have any real rivalry with Pacific.
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Post by PilotNut Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:40 am

I agree that you have to compare apples to apples... I would be curious as to the source of Stoney's data (when is that average as of? Is that announced attendance? Tickets distributed?) You can really only compare figures at the end of the season when the full schedule has been played--in the numbers above, USF and SCU will likely move up after GU plays there next week.

Hang out at a pub before a game? Hmmm, that is a brilliant idea that I may just have to try!

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Post by PilotsSpectator Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:45 am

Overheard that with the largest freshman class this year, more and more classes are being slotted for nights as the school just doesn't have the classroom space. Could this be the a small reason for low turnout on Thursdays?

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Post by Geezaldinho Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:00 pm

That's part of it. A couple profs who sit around me either can't come or are late to Thurs. games.
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Post by Guest Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:35 pm

I saw a lot of students in the library last Thursday. Gol darn bunch of over achievers. Rolling Eyes

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Post by PilotNut Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:50 pm

Its funny, if the program started winning consistently, the games would all of a sudden be a priority for the students to attend.

Yes, I know it is partially the chicken vs the egg.

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Post by PilotsSpectator Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:14 pm

Tulane claims they had 3,100 versus Memphis. The arena is completely empty! No student section at all and the school has 13,462 enrollment. I can't post a link but photos can be seen on Tulane's website or via video on ESPN.
Attendance is a problem all over and I hope the NCAA is seeing/talking about this. Shocked

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Post by DoubleDipper Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:25 pm

I doubt I missed a game during my time at UP, but if I were a UP student today I imagine I would attend only a handful of games per season due to the increased rigor of the courses, and I know for sure I would miss afternoon games just for the opportunity to take a break away from school.

The students I have the privilege of working with are often on campus by 6 AM a couple of days a week and quite often don't leave class until after 6:30 PM.   When they are not in class or the library or a study hall or a tutored session or working as an intern somewhere, they are employed in various jobs both on and off campus.  You can see a small example of this at UP games....the students are now the ones employed to take tickets, sell merchandise, and clean up after us when we leave the arena or stadium.

Go to a few of the buildings such as Shiley Hall, Swindells Hall, Romanaggi Hall, and Clark Library around game time on any given evening and there are students studying how to cure everything from cancer to the common cold, or learning to assist in surgery, or how to develop engines and modes of transportation that do not require fossil fuels.

Bottom line, when I see students at the games I want them to enjoy themselves and get on their feet and make noise while rooting for their classmates on the court, field or pitch, but I also know they did not choose to attend UP to attend athletic events....they came to UP to get degrees in rigorous fields of study so they can go on to accomplish great things that will aid their community and humankind.

Students from UP go forth from the University to inspire, lead, and improve the world...if they are able to watch a few games along the way they'll probably enjoy the experience, but it should be not a priority for them just because some of us on this forum find it a priority for ourselves.   I'm old!
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Post by Guest Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:12 pm

Yeah, but I said that with fewer words. Laughing

Given that full-time tuition + room and board is now ~$47,500 per year, a parent should be pissed if a kid puts as much emphasis on sports watching as I did when I went to UP. Sure, nobody pays full rates, but many require more than 4 years now, too.

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Post by Geezaldinho Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:31 pm

One of the issues is certainly that games aren't scheduled for attendance. The games are arranged to please ESPN or even The W.

Thursday? Saturday afternoon, Sunday, Monday night?


Really?


Last edited by Geezaldinho on Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by PilotNut Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:49 pm

Geezaldinho wrote:One of the issues is certainly that games aren't schedules for attendance. The games are arranged to please ESPN or even The W.

Thursday? Saturday afternoon, Sunday, Monday night?


Really?

I am wondering when the pendulum will start to swing back in the favor of the "in person" fans? Possibly never, with all the money involved in TV broadcasts...? I know the same issue happens in the Power 5 conferences too. Many UO and OSU fans I work with are really getting tired of the late night football games to appease TV stations... not to mention the ever-lengthening commercial breaks.




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