Irvine

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Re: Irvine

Post by OldePilot on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:57 am

Recruiting and coaching...tough and somewhat volatile subjects. Recruiting for UP is possibly a little different than some other places. The fit has to be right for the student-athlete. UP has the small, know everybody, family atmosphere both on the pitch and on campus. As a student-athlete, you have to want that environment to come to the Bluff. Tiffany stayed here (not even sure about other offers?) for Clive, her youth coach. Christine's uncle played with Clive and the connection was there. Megan came because Rachel said this is where we want to go to school. Sophie was probably a Christine connect in some way. A little luck and inside tracks helped those recruits end up at UP.

I think Garrett does a terrific job, represents the Charles legacy very well, and is the kind of coach I would want my daughter or granddaughter to play for. Again, some people may want their daughter with Anson or Ali, but I would chose Garrett every time. And I would hate to see him walk out onto the Merlo pitch behind some visiting squad.

This year isn't going as we would all prefer but it's hardly time to panic or desert the Program. And it is a Program.

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:55 am

Got it OldePilot, the ‘Program’ it is.

But I am curious, when did college soccer coaches start referring to their ‘teams’ as their ‘Programs’. Or is this a universal thing? Do college basketball, cross country, baseball, and rowing coaches have ‘teams’ now or do they have ‘Programs’.

Or for that matter do Christine, Megan and Stephanie say they play for the Women’s National Team or do they say they play for the ‘Program’. I bet they say they ‘team’ and leave it at that.

And do chemists or engineers who work for 3M or DuPont now say they work for a ‘company’ or do they say they work for a ‘Program’. I used to say I worked for a ‘company’, but that was just me.

When I played in college I always played for a ‘team’. But I used to play sports as a means to escape the ‘Grind’ of studying. And believe me, in my case, it was a ‘Grind’ no matter what class I took. I never cared for studying. I would sooner play.

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:45 am

Ah, coach speak etymology. One of my favorite subjects. I love it when basketball coaches talk about "scoring the ball". where did that come from?

In coach speak that I see, it's pretty common to refer to a single year's group of players as a team, but the body of players And coaches over generations of players as the program, or with reference to a philosophy of play or system as a program. After all, Christine and Tiffeny weren't ever on the same Pilot team But share a common history (though they were on the same teams several times in the pro ranks).

I actually think John Wooden was one of the first to use the concept in his description of the ongoing string of his UCLA teams, but he always referred to his current groups as a team, UCLA, or just named playerS, usually with their full given names.

He never referred to Karreem Abdul Jabbarr ( before he changed his name) as Lew, or as Alcindor, it was always "Lewis".

But coaches being who they are, the word was probably used elsewhere and copied where coaches wanted to be linked to success. I think Darrel Royal was fond of the term at Oklahoma.


so I went searching for these offensive references to "the program" By Garrett you seem so offended by to see if their was some sort of pattern of abuse, or to see if there was some sort of elevation of the organization over the current players or individuals.

It took a while. There are lots of Garrett quotes on the net. The results indicate you made this argument up. Search engines indicate there is no quote where he uses the word. There is only one juxtaposition on the internet where his name and the word are together on the same page, and that's in his bio, and it is in reference to his history on the bluff. that's a place I can see it as appropriate. I used dogpile, which is an all inclusive search service that compiles the results of most of the known search engines, so it's not some sort of google quirk.

There is also another reference, but it is in Bill Irwins Bio on the FC Portland site and Garrett is only mentioned in passing.

The quotes I see don't even show him using the word team all that much. He talks about players. Pilots, or Portland. He's also big on "We" and "Here", which to me conveys a concept of team play and unified purpose.

So, I challenge you to produce all these offensive uses of the word where you apparently think Garrett has somehow dehumanized players by using the term.

I don't see it and think you invented something as a straw man to attack. Or maybe you have given us a glimpse of why your pursuit of academic rigor was so difficult for you. It sounds like something to bitch about in challenging times that didn't seem to be an issue when UP amassed the second best winning percentage in the NCAA over the last 4 years.

I'll leave it to you to figure out the etymology of " out of whole cloth".
.


Last edited by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:20 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Irvine

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:45 am

The Geez's distinction between team and program is correct, and the term "program" is used throughout sports these days. I've coached high school tennis for just under 20 years. When I talk about a particular year's group -- this year's or any other year's that I refer to -- it's the "team." However, over the years we have built a particular culture and way of doing things that players going back many years are familiar with. When I talk about that, I refer to it as the program we have built over the years.

A program can be good or it can be not very good. Within a good program, there can be teams that are not very good. Within a poor program, there can be teams that are good. By and large, however, good programs end up with the better teams and poor programs end up with poorer teams.

If and when grand-daughter/U8 soccer player Zoey gets to looking at colleges with an eye to playing soccer, what I will be wanting to know is what kind of program they have. Although the nature of "this year's" team also will matter, it won't matter as much as what the program is.

Here's our all-time favorite coach's description of what I believe is a "program" as I use the term (in which he refers to a "soccer programme," in a more limited way than the way in which I use the term "program"). I look at it regularly as a reminder of the "program" I want to run in my tennis coaching. I think parts of this are a good reminder for all of us this year:

"I’m able to get information over to people in a way that seems to make sense to them and I enjoy that. I am not so much result-oriented as teaching-oriented. If it becomes all about winning, all you get is frustrated when you lose. I can’t say results were secondary, but they were kind of linked up with everything else. I think you always look to the next game – how are we going to make it better, not perfect, but nearer perfect? I get a lot out of getting players to improve their game but also develop as people. I think the two things can be connected.

"....

"Winning is not everything, in fact it is just something, but the ambition, the want to do as well as you can is important, and that has to be based on an idea of what real success is. Young fans, young players who turn out for their schools, can take that sort of thing into their everyday lives. Why should anyone be satisfied by second best? Again, there is nothing wrong with coming in second, but that shouldn’t stop you from trying to be the first or even a better second.

"....

"You have to be ready to learn things from your players to be the best possible coach. There comes a point when things are going really well when you are learning as much from each other and it isn’t just one way. I’m not sure many coaches ... have a chance to get to that point. Probably there are too many demands to produce performances overnight. But you can only teach a player so much, after that your job as a coach is learning as much as you can about them; how can you put them in a place where they can be the best they can be and in a position that is most useful to the team. That is about collaboration, working together and that of course takes trust. Trust is something given and your are honoured when it is given. But to get trust you have to give it. .... [W]ithout trust there can be no respect – so fear and threat take over and eventually that gets destructive. Where I coach ... we’ve managed to build something bigger than a [soccer] programme. [T]here’s a family atmosphere and people feel a loyalty to the place and each other. That goes beyond [soccer] really. In the end that is the biggest thing any sport can do – become a source of something that endures throughout your life.

"...

"If you want you can learn as much from the knock-backs as anything else. In fact, I think we learn much more from having to do what is hard. That’s what I think a coach can do – help players see the wider implications of what is happening to them because of their involvement with the team. That way [soccer] can help you live your life and is not just an end in itself.

"...

"A difficulty young people have today, not just young people maybe, is that they always seem to need or want more. It seems harder to make the most of any little opportunity. A place [on the team] is not enough, it has to be a guarantee of a place. The reality of course is that we mostly just get the one chance and it is up to no one but us to make the most of it. You miss a chance on goal, no one is going to say, ‘Shame, why don’t you have another pop?’ The next chance you get it will be up to you to make the best of. I think it is the job of a coach to teach this sort of thing. Sport gives opportunities to learn about this stuff in a very real way. ... It’s not that young people are just ‘bad’ or ‘spoiled,’ that’s too easy, although some undoubtedly are, but in the main it’s because they haven’t had the chance to learn the lessons. We have to learn these things by experience – no one can just be told and then get it. It’s like saying ‘There aren’t enough black managers’ and that ‘someone should do something about it.’ Sure ‘they’ should, but you can’t wait for ‘them’ to help you, you might wait forever. You should do something about it!

"What’s the good of being given something just because of the fact that you ‘are something’? A woman, black? That is just as racist as not being given something because you are black. If you want something you’ve got to go out and get it, that’s a rule of life, no matter what or who you are. You can’t expect to be given chances, you’ve got to make the world give you a chance."

The above is from The Black Hammers – The Voice of West Ham United’s Ebony Heros, by Brian Belton.

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:17 am

LOVE word Programme Wink and especially that Clive used it.

I might have to go back to talking about offence and defence.

That would be a scarey thought, wouldn't it?

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:26 am

Geez,
First of all not all knowledge is available on the internet. Sometimes one must use primary sources when doing research. People who do research for a living know that.

Second I don't have a vendetta against Garrett. My vendetta is with the system that currently surrounds the women’s soccer ‘team’ at UP. And that system is not concerned with the well being of the women who play there. Garrett is a pawn; he is just trying to make a living to support his young family. The problem exists above Garrett and unfortunately the women on the team are paying the price. And no, I can’t point you in the right direction for you to validate that information on the internet. It’s not there but that doesn’t mean it’s not real; because it is.

With regards to the term Program vs. team; the women who play or have played for the Pilots never refer to their experience as playing for ‘the Program’ when they are among themselves. They are or were part of ‘the team’ and anyone who has ever played or is playing at Portland is their teammate. That is the way it is. That information is not on the internet either, but it's true.

And Geez I have not attacked anyone personally on this website and you have no idea what I have accomplished professionally or academically or the rigors I have faced in my life. So I suggest you back off.

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:28 am

BS. You are still making it up. Now that i called you on the "program" issue, you try to switch to some other specious argument, conveniently prefaced with a caveat that it can't be documented. Come up with some facts.


Job security has never been a real issue with either Garrett or Clive on the bluff. That's not what drove either of them. Providing a n environment where players get better and where they can flourish as students and players is. Nobody fires coaches for performance when their winning percentages are in the top 3. Doesn't happen unless you think you can hire one of the top two.


Garrett competes with only one person in anybodies eyes here. That person is unfortunately no longer available. I think it's unfair to hold anybody to that standard anyway.


Garrett actually has a better record in providing a good academic environment and recruiting to academic guidelines. The NCAA records that Garrett's teams have compiled a perfect 1000 APR every year he has been on the bluff. I can assure you that when people talk about the administrations tolerance with regard to Garrett's coaching history, the president and AD regard that as being as important or more important that a championship. Last year almost the whole team was on the WCC academic honors list.

That is something none of the other Programmes can match, not UCLA, Nor Stanford, UNC, Notre Dame, nor even Harvard, for that matter. Look it up yourself. You will even see teams that didn't meet the mandated 925 minimum requirement in years they won championships. You won't see that here.

You will even see past national champions that wouldn't be allowed to compete in the tournament under the new guidelines that will start in 2014.


And you are the one that brought up your academic struggles, not me.

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:08 pm

Geez,

I have to admit it, you are VERY GOODm with presenting data And fast too. I sincerely mean that. I am not being sarcstic.

How do you have all that data at your fingertips?

Because I can't/won't back my claims up with data I will shut up. You are absolutely right, "Put up or shut up." I can't argue with that.

I'll just let this thing this play out the way it will. Hopefully it will be for the best for everyone involved.








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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:18 pm

I'm retired. I have time.

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Re: Irvine

Post by ejjqb on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:20 pm

I have had difficult time understanding "purple's" argument concerning Garrett's approach with his teams. I have seen nearly every home game for at least ten years and many prior to that. In all that time, I have never seen an instance in which I wondered why someone didn't shoot because they were afraid of the repercussions. I saw one comment last year by a freshman about some reluctance to shoot. Who knows what was behind that? 18-year olds say some strange things that puzzle lots of us. I've had four and I was never quite sure what would come out of their mouths. So how can anyone who is obviously far away from true connection with the games here make an argument that the players are under the gun for doing what a soccer player is supposed to do? I don't see it. I see players playing poorly at times, some not executing as well is past years but there are lots of possible reasons besides Garrett. We have all seen top coaches have teams that seemed to have periods of poor execution. That just presents a new challenge for the coach and the team.

I also think that UPSF gave the correct description of the difference between team and program and that should really be the end of that argument because his description describes perfectly what I have experienced following the Pilots for over 20 years.

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:41 pm

ejjqb:
You assume I don't have connectons.

But Geez is absolutely right, if I'm not willing to back up my statements with data I should keep my mouth shut. And I will from here on out.

Just assume that what I said is simply my opinion because without data that is reallyi all it is.

And as far as Team vs Program, don't worry about it. Its just a pet peeve I have, I shouldn't have even brought it up. Its silly really. And I agree UPSF gave a very good explanation on the differances.

Who knows maybe it will all work out for the best for everyone involved. I hope it does.

Geez,

I am just curious, what did you do before you retired? You don't have to anwer if you don't want to.

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:46 pm



I worked in the construction industry

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Re: Irvine

Post by Dan No Yell on Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:23 pm

Not to derail things, but 2 notes on recruiting.

1) UP does not offer the range of courses/majors that larger universities do.

2) Some of our opponents this year have a large number overseas players. I would guess that it takes money and organization to do that kind of recruiting and that a large U would have the advantage there.

I like that a large number of our players come locally, from the NW and from the West. We just need a Canadian superstar to add to the mix.

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Re: Irvine

Post by keeper on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:25 pm

You can add to Dan No Yell's comments:

3) More universities are now investing dollars into womens sports than before. Look no farther than Corvallis, a nice enough soccer only stadium and a nice place to go to college or Washington, another nice enough soccer only stadium and a nice place to go to college.

4) Better coaching across the country at the collegiate level.

5) Large population bases of young female soccer players in California and throughout the midwest and east coast. While most kids want to get away from home to go to college, there are a lot of options to allow you stay within a 3 hour dirve or 2 hour flight from home.

The reality is the marginal results this year point to the greater challenges to maintain the success of years past that exist as the sport evolves. As someone pointed out, even mighty North Carolina is having challenges this year.

As far as heat on Garrett, give me a break. There are a lot reasons team's succeed or fail. And not all successt can be attributed to having a roster of superstars. Chemistry, injuries, player development, heart and luck just to name a few. And let's be honest, the Pilots have experienced their share of injuries over the last 2-3 years that are still impacting this year's team. Many of the elements listed above are beyond the control of the coach,. And while the coach can influence these items, the reality is a lot of this comes down on the players.

Lastly, someone in this thread made the comment that Soccer is just a game and everyone should take a breath. I applaud that person for pointing out what a lot of people seem to be missing. We're talking about women's college soccer, get some perspective. God help you if you take the rest of life so seriously.


Last edited by keeper on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Gramatical error)

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Re: Irvine

Post by up7587 on Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:44 pm

Geez, you are obviously not a fan of American football. Darrell Royal played at Oklahoma, but he was the coach at UT-Austin.

Garrett is in one of the toughest jobs in the world:
Darrell Royal -> Fred Akers (winning coach who nobody remembers)
John Wooden -> Gene Bartow (two years, two NCAA appearances, quit for UAB)
Vince Lombardi -> Phil Bengston (four years, fired with losing record)
Red Auerbach -> Bill Russell (three years, left with bitter feelings all around)
Bear Bryant -> Ray Perkins (six years, winning record, quit to go to pros)
Dean Smith -> Bill Guthridge (three years, 2 Final Fours but declining win-loss record, retired)

I think you see the pattern here. Following a legend is never easy. Hopefully the UP coaches will continue to find success.

Also, our little board is finally starting to read like some of the "big boy" boards I peruse. Smack!

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:08 pm

Shows how old I am. I always knew he was in the rivalry, but I guess I got confused as to where he played and coached. Those years were the biggest rivalry in sports.

Its all perpective. After Wooden retired:

Bartow was 52-9 when he got fired for not measuring up.

so they got Garry Cunningham, who went 50-8 before he got fired for non-perfomance.

They each lasted two years and had better career winning percentages than Wooden had in his tenure at UCLA. He posted a record of 36 -14 his first two years, and he spent 16 years learning the craft of coaching as head coach of UCLA before he won his first national title.

who's up next? Larry Brown. he really sucked at 42-17 -- really unacceptable, so they got rid of him. I hope his exit clause was a good one. I hope he got a good job somewhere.

Larry Farmer was next. he still came nowhere near living up to the legend. He went 39-15 and got booted.

they thought "lets go with a UCLA legend" so they hired Walt Hazzard. nobody could shoot from the corner like he. He apparently saw the two year cycle of firings and got a five year no- cut contract.
He went 77 -47. Mount St Mary's in Maryland, a little school of 1200 students did better. He did get an NIT ring, though. I'll bet that is front and center in the trophy case.

Then they decided we needed to stick with somebody, so they chose Jim Harrick and rode him to a 192-62 record and one championship - a bit better, but there was that unfortunate rules violation thing and the false expense reports. I guess a BMW wasn't in the contract.... details.

So Steve Lavin was next. Elite Eight his first year, pretty good -- but then it was sweet sixteens and a first round appearance, and a 145 -78 record - not as good as the Wizard of Westwood, so lets fire him.

Ben Howland? UP beat him. His last three seasons are an 8-10 bracketed by two 13-5 seasons. he is now 182 -80. He's the dead mouse on the kitchen floor that folks are drawing straws over who will throw him out.

coming after a legend is tough. looking back, Gene looks pretty good.

Roy Williams is probably a whisker away from retirement.
How would you like to be the guy who follows Anson or krzyzewski?

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