Irvine

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Re: Irvine

Post by PurplePrideTrumpet on Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:05 pm

Dan No Yell wrote:
Until very recently we always had very easy early season schedules. Which apparently hurt us with post season seeding and home field. So we switched to a much more demanding schedule and it is taking a toll on this young team. I think it has hurt confidence, and I would not be surprised if it has hurt team chemistry. As the lack of clear healthy starters may have.

There's some luck involved here as well. Not everyone is able or willing to schedule Portland. This year we were able to put together one of the tougher nonconference schedules in the WCC but we lost a lot of players. If last year's team played this year's schedule we'd be in the running for a top seed again. I prefer a tougher schedule myself. You'll have to play somebody eventually if you want to make a postseason run so you may as well get ready.


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Re: Irvine

Post by UPPilots on Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:15 pm

I think what holds UP back on the recruiting stage is not who is doing the recruiting, but what the school is offering. UP is a microcosm in college soccer. It is truly unique that our women's team leads the nation in attendance every year, yet the school itself only has a few thousand students. While there are certainly a TON of positives about Portland and going to UP, for a lot of college age students, it's a hard sell. When the weather is rainy and the school is small, its easy to see why potential recruits may not like UP. It's tough to compete with schools that offer nicer weather, bigger populations, football games on saturdays, big parties...

For the girls, it's been easier because they have been winning consistently in recent years, so they've been able to use, "we have ____ straight conference championships, we lead the nation in attendance, we're consistently ranked in the top 10 if not top 5 if not top 3, and everyone loves us in Portland (haha)" but now it may be a bit tougher. In the girls game, national team caliber players get identified as so earlier and turn out to be good players more often than not. The girls have prospered because of this recently, because some games they have basically just been able to out-talent opponents and win games.

With the boys it's even tougher, because I think in general guys, more so than gals, want to go to bigger schools. There is a little more variation with guys national team players, as guys can show a lot more development around the 16-21 age than girls. and there is now the MLS and Europe to deal with, so the best players no longer go to college. There are less teams on the men's side so talent gets concentrated and makes recruiting that much more important.

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Re: Irvine

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:24 pm

Hey all, go over to the BigSoccer website and look to see what the North Carolina fans are saying about their team. They cry over recruiting woes and are saying the current team is the worst they ever can remember. It's getting very tough out there. The caliber of average player among US girls has increased greatly in recent years and there are increasing numbers of top level players, which means it is getting very tough to have teams year in and year out that are far above all the others. And, look at Notre Dame, they are returning national champs and have a losing record so far this season. And, look at USC, they won the national championship pretty recently and are 3-6 on the season.

The Pilots did set up an extremely difficult non-conference schedule for themselves this season, and the WCC is stronger than it's ever been. It's going to be very tough, so let's just root for them to get into the Tournament. They've given a lot to us over recent years and now it's out chance to give back to them with the best fan support ever. Yahoo!

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Re: Irvine

Post by UPPilots on Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:59 am

UPSF, I agree. I think in the past decade, the best girls went to the best 10 or so teams, so that allowed for consistent dominance by the likes of us, UNC, Notre Dame, etc. There simply wasn't enough talent going to other schools for them to be competitive. I mean, there should be no way that UP can play a school like USF and win 7-0 without giving up a shot (which they have done or at least have been close to doing in the past). But now, in both women's and men's soccer, more kids are playing the game growing up, talent is getting both better and deeper, so there is going to be more parity in the game in the future. Although this may not be good for our desires for UP to finish every season 20-0, I think it is good for the game overall. That's not to say that UP teams won't be able to have those season where they go 17-2-1 or whatever, but they have to realize that their games are going to be more competitive and they may have to grind out 1-0 wins much like the guys have been having to do over the past decade

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Re: Irvine

Post by fan from afar on Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:00 am

Geezaldinho wrote:Again, you are taking recent history and treating it like it was always the UP path to success. Nothing is further from the truth.
The fact is we usually were pretty pleased if the player made ODP.


I actually agree completely. I came into contact with the team right after they won the second nat. championship, and that roster as well as the future (with some NT players coming in) looked just as bright as the recent past. Someone earlier made the point that success breeds success, meaning winning the championship helps recruiting, and that seems to have been the case then. Conversely, not winning again over the past several years (since I have been a fan - oh oh) may have hurt recruiting. We seemed to have had the talent to do it a third time, but injuries, bad luck, lack of the big scorer etc etc didn't let it happen. My only point is that now, recruiting does seem to be down from the past several years, at least in terms of NT players.

Having said that, I guess the years before the first championship were sometimes good but not spectacular. As others have said, UP is a small school with a strong but very limited appeal to soccer players and therefore should not expect multiple NT players every year. I would also like to point out to those who have been questioning whether the school administration will tolerate a coach of a mediocre team, that UP was evidently mediocre for many years before the first championship - correct me if I am wrong here - and evidently Clive had no problem being tolerated for many years with no national championship. Garrett seems to me to be a high quality coach AND a high quality person, and I seriously doubt he is having any pressure put on him by the administration.

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Re: Irvine

Post by fan from afar on Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:09 am

A further thought - Just because the situation once was that fans were "pleased if the player made ODP" does not mean that the situation need always be like that, just as the fact that we have had a plentiful inflow of NT players recently need mean that the situation will always be like THAT. What is, is.

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:51 pm

no, we don't have to be satisfied with that. My point is that NT players aren't what built the program.

Very good players playing great team soccer is.

sometimes we played teams where every player was overmatched in size and speed and still schooled the athletic teams.



Last edited by Geezaldinho on Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:52 pm

fan from afar wrote:

Having said that, I guess the years before the first championship were sometimes good but not spectacular. As others have said, UP is a small school with a strong but very limited appeal to soccer players and therefore should not expect multiple NT players every year. I would also like to point out to those who have been questioning whether the school administration will tolerate a coach of a mediocre team, that UP was evidently mediocre for many years before the first championship - correct me if I am wrong here - and evidently Clive had no problem being tolerated for many years with no national championship. Garrett seems to me to be a high quality coach AND a high quality person, and I seriously doubt he is having any pressure put on him by the administration.

Call this your correction.


I think that may be misrepresenting Clive's record, maybe because you don't know the history of soccer before and after he got here. His first full season for the women was 1989. Before 1986, UP had no NCAA history - none. Clive agreed to take over the women's program after going 21-1 to the semi's with the men under the condition that UP fund the women's program in a first class manner.

He started the UP program in the NCAA from scratch. You may even be Misrepresenting UP's tolerance, since mediocrity was never part of Clive's history on the bluff. Once they went NCAA, they were always at or near the top of the NCAA under Clive. the administration had no problem "tolerating" going to the semis virtually every year with a brand new program. I think rather than tolerate, they were ecstatic that little UP was on the national scene in any sport.


His third year with the women (1991) they were 13-2-2 and just missed their first tournament berth ever in school history - probably because they weren't in a conference with an auto qualifier.

they joined the WCC the next year , won conference, and got their first berth in 1992 which they did every year but one after that under Clive. remember that only 16 teams went to the tournament in those years.

They went to the quarters in 1993. Then over the next 9 years they went to the College Cup in 1994 (hosted by UP), 1995, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, and 2002. that is 7 out of 9 years that they went to the semis or better.

in 1995, 7 years into Clive's history of coaching the UP NCAA program, they lost 3-2 in the final. They finally won it all in Clive's last year.
from 1990-1995, we were also treated to a display of soccer prowess by Tiffeny and Shannon, which made even the losing games (few as they were) fun to watch.

Unless you call 7 of 9 semis mediocre, i don't think that record is anything BUT spectacular. Before he came, UP never had an NCAA appearance. In 1995 he had both the Men's and Women's programs in the College cup at the same time. The only post season showing of any kind for the women's team before he coached was a 1985 NAIA second round regional qualifier by the women. And again, he did it by instilling a system of teamwork, without a large number of National team players. Be aware that WCC teams were underfunded by 2 scholarships before 1998 by league policy, which makes the record even more spectacular. (also explains why we didn't get all those NT players, eh?)

in his years on the bluff he won 400 games, his women's record is third all time in winning percentage.

Can you think of any other NCAA team that went from zero to 7 of 9 semi's so fast in any sport?


Last edited by Geezaldinho on Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Irvine

Post by ejjqb on Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:30 pm

Geez has provided a great history of the UP women's program. Clearly the Pillots had a superior program for many years. The credit for this must go to the best coach in the country who was blessed with coachable players who were able to realize their full potential under his guidance. His methods have been well-documented in this forum and they were so successful at producing the most enjoyable soccer for even the uneducated fan to watch.

(I still have a clear replay in my mind of Shannon's curling free kick from 25 yards that preceded the great Beckham, only to repeat it to the keeper's shock when the ref blew the first one off as it was before his whistle. This set the stage for the shocking end to the later year's similar free kick before the ref's whistle in the College Cup that ended the epic OT game.)

The challenge for the Pilots today is that there are many wonderful coaches and many more great players who have been well-coached much earlier in their lives than in the early days of Pilot success. While Clive was clearly the best around, Garrett is just one of many. We all appreciate the system that he has continued but even that has been emulated by others. I agree with those who say that achieving the superiority of past Pilot teams will be much more challenging going forward due to the overall growth of the game throughout the country. Parity is becoming a reality that, apparently, even the "great" Tarheel fans are struggling with.

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Re: Irvine

Post by Dan No Yell on Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:47 pm

Is there any way to to put together a list of all the men and women coaches out there who were coached by Clive Charles? College and pro.

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Re: Irvine

Post by fan from afar on Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:57 pm

Thanks for the history lesson, Geezer. I hadn't realized Clive was so successful so quickly. I think my main purpose was to dig a little at the people who are denigrating the coaching after a few losing games. I see too much of that here with Jim Boeheim and Syracuse basketball - they lose a few games, and it's "fire the coach", who is one of the winningest basketball coaches in history. Garrett has won a national championship and has since kept the team at a very high level until this year. He's one of the best in the business.

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Re: Irvine

Post by Geezaldinho on Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:25 pm

Before the torches and pitchforks come out for Garrett, he has a better winning percentage than his mentor, no doubt aided by the legacy Clive left.

This is his first real year of adversity, similar to the 1999 season Clive had. It will be interesting to see how the program grows from the experience.

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:10 am

It will be interesting to see how Garrett grows from this experience; especially over the next 5-6 weeks. The season is only half over. He has a lot more work to do.

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Re: Irvine

Post by forumup57 on Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:56 pm

He may not. It may be a function of how much faith the administration has in him. They really have not been through adversity either, at least when it comes to the womens soccer program. Are they in panic mode?

Not much has been made of it, but in hindsight, last season's playoff failure may have been the last chance at a National championship for awhile. Garrett had an opportunity to move out of Clive's shadow and cement his own legacy. Instead, it looks like it became the start of a tailspin, at least temporarily. He may wind up ( fairly or unfairly ) being remembered as the guy who lived off Clive's larger than life image for a while and couldn't maintain the program that Clive built. It's a tough spot to be in.

It's very difficult to get a read on whether he's up to this task or not. Time will tell. You like to see people succeed under adversity. Reality is that this is the coaches team, he picked the players and sets the direction of the program for the season and future seasons. At the end of the day, he gets to be accountable. Public opinion is one thing, making the boss happy is another. One thing is for sure, some of the public is getting unnerved a bit and if he has not endeared himself to the administration in some way an opportunity is being presented to them.

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Re: Irvine

Post by A_Fan on Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:43 pm

Dude, have you bothered to read any of the previous posts?

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Re: Irvine

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:27 pm

Or, to put it another way, who are you going to get that's better? Until I hear a better name than Garrett Smith, I'll think this is just a lot of frustrated fan grumping.

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:44 pm

forumup57,
I agree with everyithing you said but look at it this way…...

Garrett has dug himself a deep hole so far this season, going from #4 to a #36 in the national rankings in the span of only 10 games. Everyone knows this and everyone is talking about it. He is in avery tight spot BUT, if he can turn it around and win the WCC and get invited to the NCAA Championships he will be a hero. Even if his team gets clobbered in the first round everyone, including the bosses at UP, will think he is the comeback kid. They will think he walks on water and the monkey will be off his back and he has his own UP legacy from there on out.

He has a golden opportunity here. He just has to turn it around and win the WCC. Simple! Bamm!

And A-Fan I have read the previous posts but I agree with forumup57 Garrett had better work his ass off the next few weeks. He is in survival mode now, I kid you not.

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Re: Irvine

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:48 pm

Nice try, colormepurple, but I've read your other posts and you don't like the current coaching staff. You should go over and post on BS.

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:51 pm

I love the current coaching staff waht the hell you talkilng about dude?

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:52 pm

The only I love more are the women who play for the Pilots. I just don't think you folks from Oregon understand my sense of humor. C'mon.

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Re: Irvine

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:59 pm

color me purple wrote: I love the current coaching staff waht the hell you talkilng about dude?

Here's what I'm talking about. This is your post:

"There is one other important differance between the 2002 team and last year's team that is not being discussed on this string. The 2002 team was coached by Clive Charles. Clive inspired and lead his players on (and off) the pitch. Garrett doesn't. I shudder every time I read one of his players say they are affraid they will get yelled at if they take a shot. That isn't leadership; that's intimidation. There is a differance. I think everyone needs to take a step back and review the mission statement of UP's Athletic Department. I am affraid the UP may have lost their way with their women's soccer program. Its no longer about developing the hearts, minds and spirits of their athletes; it's all about filling the seats in the stadium ($$)and winning the NCAA Div I Championship. I don't think Clive would approve."

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:50 pm

OK serously UPSF,

I played against Clive Charles back in the day and I know a number of women that played for him, especially the ones that came from the central valley here in California I had the utmost admiration for Clive as a person, teacher and as a soccer coach. And I am in awe of what he did at UP in building up 2 soccer programs from scratch. I put him in the same league as John Wooden and Vince Lombardi. He was a truly amazing and good person.

And I love the Uiniverstty of Portand. Its a great small, private school. A wonderful place to get a terrific education.

But Garrett and his staff have shown me nothing over the last 4 years. I thilnk they are bringing the program that Clive busted his ass building down and that I am having a hard time with. Primarily because I think the women that play there deserve better. They came there expecting better and they are not getting it.

And I am not talking about winning national champiionships. Because in reality that isn't what is important. Its a nice thing to strive for but that is not what is important. It part of being on a well functioning team is what is important. Clive knew this. I know that.

Garrett now has a chance to prove me wrong. He has a golden opportunity to show me and everyone else what he is made off. Not only by winning games but by leading a team.

I know some of you disagree with me but I don't care. I am more concerned about the women who play for UP than 'the progam'. I fact whenever I hear anyoone say 'the program' it makes me want to puke. It's the team for Chlrist sake. Say the team.

I don't want to see anyone fail and lose their job, however I want to see this coaching staff man up.

Lead, follow or get out of the way, for the sake of the team.





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Re: Irvine

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:29 pm

OK, that's more like it, and I can respect it. I just don't like people hiding behind a false front. Beyond that, there's plenty of room for a good and honest discourse.

So, I agree with you about Clive being in the same league with John Wooden and Vince Lombardi. Being realistic, however, one can hope but can't realistically expect anyone to meet that standard. Maybe someone can grow into it, but even that is not a realistic expectation -- although a hope to be sure. Not realistic because those kinds of coaches only come along once in a generation and also because I don't know of any women's college coach in the US who would come close to Clive -- I don't know enough about Waldrum at Notre Dame to say nor about the current coach at Clemson who just left a very successful UNC Greensboro program (which immediately tanked once he left).

I was looking earlier this evening at the picture I use on my PN posts -- Woznuk, Rapinoe, Huie, Sinclair -- and none of Lopez (Cox) and the others on that team even are in it. I don't know if any other team (UP or otherwise) ever will see that kind of group. I also remember that Garrett was the assistant coach responsible for recruiting back in those days although Clive certainly was the main attraction that may have closed the deals. And I remember, with no disrespect to Clive intended, that the day to day coach of the 2002 team was Garrett. I think you know enough about the team to know that was the case.

On the other hand, it's clear the team is struggling. Commenters are right that recruits are not what they once were, at least in the immediate present. And, the coaching staff is tense and the players are feeling pressure from them not to make mistakes and thus have played, at times, an inhibited brand of soccer -- although whether this is ok or not is yet to be seen as the season is a long way from over. The staff appears to me, however, to have made some changes this year that I think are good tactically, opening up their offensive approach from last year's very constrained approach. The addition of Kelsey Davis to the staff, I think, has been very positive.

But again, holding anyone to the Clive Charles standard is too much. Surely you know this.

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Re: Irvine

Post by GUPhantom on Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:50 am

I think the question that's being overlooking is...has the coaching staff been able to recruit the players of their first choice off the board? The hard fact of the recruiting wars is the answer is probably...No! When it comes to recruiting ...you're not always going to get what you want...except for a couple of schools who seem to get the pick of the liter year to year? I think UP has just had a couple of near misses in the last few recent classes.

IMHO...those misses have immediate impact to the program. The composition of 1st choice players signed by UP signs is more critical to them than most teams. Yes.. a "1st choice" recruit doesn't necessarily equate to being a player with National Team credentials. But it doesn't hurt to have them. In most cases, since I've been following UP soccer, the 1st choice players...are the players that elevate the rest of the team. Cox, Rapinoe, Woznuk, Huie with Sinclair? When a quarter of your team brings world-class level play to the pitch...Pilot soccer transforms. It's Magic! Winters, Reed, Tsao, Enyeart and Schmidt carried and continued the rich level of play we've come to expect. To me, those players were definitely 1st off the board. We've had a good run at our 1st choice recruits. But, as Women's College Soccer evolves....they may have been harder for UP to get in the last 2 recruiting cycles.


Much of the discussions and reasons for the team's current anemic play is execution. If you don't have the personnel to execute the style and level of play you expect from your team... then you start to compromise. That's what we're seeing now...formation changes, player-positions changes and game management. It also makes sense that Garrett forecasted he might have some trouble offensively this season in bringing in the jr college transfer. Then consider you're dealing with injuries to the players you do have....I think Garrett is doing an excellent job with what he has on the table to work with.

GO PILOTS!!!

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Re: Irvine

Post by color me purple on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:52 am

UPSF,
You are certainly right. Holding out for the second coming of Clive is not only unrealistic but not fair to all involved. That is like holding out for the second coming of Christine S. and Megan R. - don't hold your breath. Perhaps everyone (school officials, coaching staff, players, AND fans) need to take a deep breath, say a prayer and relax. After all, soccer is not life and death it's kicking a ball around a grass field. Besides, sometimes when you relax and chill out things come more smooth and naturaly - like winning soccer matches.

Here is to the second half of the season folks - cheer those beautiful Pilots on up in Portland for me. And have fun.

With regards to the evalution of women's soccer in this country. It is (evolving). One needs to take into account that many families simply can't afford to have their girls play club soccer these days. I have certainly seen that where I live. At the same time the girls who are playing soccer at college (on scholarship) know they also need to also study hard to be able to compete in the job market after they graduate. Its that or play soccer in the WPS league. Right.

The world is a lot differant than when Clive coached on the bluff.

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