hot stove 1 - tie breakers

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hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by fan from afar on Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:49 pm

Now that the season is over, I have several general topics I thought might be interesting to help pass the dark time until next fall. So, here's my topic number 1.

Almost everyone I have heard comment on the subject believes that shootouts are a terrible way to decide a tied game. If you were king of the soccer rules committee, what would be a better alternative?

Here's an alternative to start things off - In a high scoring game like basketball, an overtime (or two) will do it. Soccer overtimes usually leave a game tied. I believe the pointy football guys got it pretty close to right - a controlled situation involving the whole team that leads to a score reasonably quickly. In futball, that could be done as follows: If tied after overtimes, team A gets a corner and they play until team A scores or until team B gets possession. Possession could be defined as just clearing the ball back over the midfield line. Team B then gets their corner. Each team gets one possession (corner) in each round, alternating going first. If they are still tied after round one, a player comes off from each team (2nd round 10 v 10). Next round becomes 9 v 9, etc. This continues until someone is ahead after a round and wins. Decreasing the numbers each round will create more and more open space until someone scores. The attacking team would be able to apply lots of pressure because they would not be worrying about defending their half, and would not need a goalie - all players up in the attack. I think this could be fun.

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:56 pm

I'd modify that.

I think if you can score in that scenario on your opponents corner, you win.

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by SoreKnees on Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:16 pm

Fan, I like your idea a lot. Much better than the current shootout. The only problem I see with the corner as the initiating is that it favors teams that are dominant in the air over teams with, say, outstanding striking ability from distance.

An alternative would be to start with a free kick from 40 yards out. A second round, if necessary, could be from 35, then 30 and so on until you get to 20 yards out. Another alternative would be to just keep repeating from, say, 25 or 30 yards. Either of these would allow a team with a great striker to try to score that way whereas a team that is strong in the air could lob a high ball into the box just as on a corner kick.

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by Stonehouse on Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:25 pm

You know... I actually don't mind shootouts that much. I mean, yeah, it's not ideal, but nothing will be ideal in a game like soccer.

I actually kind of enjoy the drama of it, and the hero/goat pressure.

Of course, would I be happy if the NBA Finals were decided on a free throw contest? No. But any alternative other than just letting them play forever seems to be too gimmicky. I don't know...

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by SoreKnees on Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:37 pm

To me, the idea of breaking the deadlock after the normal overtimes is to progressively increase the probability of scoring. The problem with just adding on more time is that it might never end due to the low probability of scoring. Penalty kicks increase the probability to an extreme degree: the probability of scoring exceeds the probability of not scoring. They also put too much weight on the goalkeeper and none at all on defending ability, passing ability, or any other skill except shooting hard and accurately. (I remember 2002 when, due to injury, we almost went to kicks for the national championship with a 'keeper who had played 25 minutes and faced two shots all season. Very scary!)

Either Fan's corner kick scenario or my free-kick alternative would do that in something approximating the normal flow of play, where all players get to contribute to success or failure doing more or less what they normally do. (Defenders defend, forwards attack, goalkeepers save, etc.) Less emphasis on a couple of individual skills and more on team play.

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:45 pm

The UNC-Portland 4 overtime semifinal game is still one of the best dramas in sports I've ever seen....

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by Auto Pilot on Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:32 pm

I have actually seen the decreasing number of player tie breakers in play before and I can tell you it reminded me of Medival torture for the the last 4 or five players. Remember the movie about marathon dancing "They Shoot Horses Don't They?"

They corner kick idea is novel. However PKs are a much hated tradition of soccer not likely to be replaced anytime soon. That is why if you are a coach espcially at the end of the year you do PKs at every practice. Usually at the end when the players are tired. Just like in the match.

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by up7587 on Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:40 pm

I say play on until someone scores, but then I don't have to do it myself. Smile

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by fan from afar on Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:03 pm

SK - I really like your idea of starting with a direct kick instead of a corner, as long as it's a ways away - at least 30 yards out. Teams would have to decide whether to play a ball into the box, or possess it and work it in closer - more options. I think starting with the ball on the field is a big improvement.

Geezer - I see two problems with allowing the defense to continue play trying to score:
1- you are putting less emphasis on the offensive team scoring - they have to leave defender(s) back - not insurmountable problem, but the idea is to make it easier to score.
2- More serious - How do you end it? If the defense gets the ball and goes down to try to score, you might as well be playing another overtime. You will end up going back and forth as in normal play, with probably no end in sight.

Auto P - I have coached several indoor tournament games that used decreasing numbers, and I loved it. It was pure excitement. We were down to 2 v 2 before we scored. I have never seen it outdoors. And, I agree that nothing will probably change. This is just for the exercise.

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Re: hot stove 1 - tie breakers

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:26 pm

fan from afar wrote:
Geezer - I see two problems with allowing the defense to continue play trying to score:
1- you are putting less emphasis on the offensive team scoring - they have to leave defender(s) back - not insurmountable problem, but the idea is to make it easier to score.
2- More serious - How do you end it? If the defense gets the ball and goes down to try to score, you might as well be playing another overtime. You will end up going back and forth as in normal play, with probably no end in sight.

I dunno, but lots of sports have no problem deciding when one team or another has possession. Basketball is such a sport, and they have no problem deciding. Soccer rules themselves decide on possession on fouls all the time. Most of the penalty decisions depend on who has the ball.

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