USC game

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Re: USC game

Post by Geezaldinho on Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:28 pm

KFTC wrote:
UCLA seems to being playing a better looking style of soccer than last year. Jill may have torn a page out of Pia's book. So look for them to be a monster again this year. Which is fine with me because when we beat them, which we will when it counts, it will be all the more sweet.

I'm not sure if you attribute that to Jill, or to her two assistants, Shannon MacMillan and BJ Snow, who have been coaching the team in Jill's absence while she was with the national team. I would gather that means the entire pre-season, and probably most of last spring as well.


A pretty big clue to that might have been her quote before the game that UCLA would play "attractive soccer". That's not a phrase I can find her saying before, but it is classic Clive Charles. I wonder where she got that?

Jill - What's that you're doing with the team?
Mac - Um- it's called attractive soccer.
Jill - Cool. looks nice. Let's use it.

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Re: USC game

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:06 pm

This brings up something interesting. For years, as we know, Anson Dorrance-coached North Carolina teams dominated women's college soccer. They did it playing a very unattractive brand of soccer, simply ramming the ball forward into the offensive end as quickly as possible, ever forward, no build up, little sophistication. Dorrance also was a great recruiter of the best high school players and was able to force them to play this style through the force of his personality.

Many people attribute the bang it forward approach of the US Women's World Cup team and of many American college teams to the style taught by Dorrance and his various protege coaches. This may be exaggerated, but there's probably some truth in it. Now, with the move to Pia Sundhage as coach of the US Women's National Team, there seems to be a shift towards a more attractive, sophisticated brand of soccer that requires more technical skill and finesse and a better understanding of the soccer field as a whole. This follows/parallels the descent of NC from dominance into the ranks of the good NCAA teams.

When did this all begin? I like to think that a major part of the beginning was right here in Portland with the brand of soccer that Clive Charles taught. I've thought for a long time that the watershed year was in 1998 when Portland lost to NC in the NCAA semis in quadruple overtime, playing the entire game with 13 or 14 players. My favorite quote of all time about Clive came from a Pilot parent (I believe it was Tara Koleski's dad), referring to that game: "20 high school All Americans against one well-coached team." Slowly, but surely, Portland has proved that the "beautiful game" can prevail in women's soccer; and it's a game that many young soccer players want to play. (Jerry Smith at Santa Clara gets some credit for this, too.) The seeds Clive planted have taken time to germinate, but I believe that he as much as, and perhaps more than, anyone is the reason for the change.

Maybe this is just my Purple Pilot Cult nature (bias?) coming to the surface, but I don't think so.

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Re: USC game

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:06 am

Two questions I've been meaning to ask:

1. Does anyone else think Elli Reed should have gotten an assist on Sophie's goal, in addition to Charney? I'm not sure what the definition is of an "assist," but I know that sometimes two players can get assists on a goal.

2. Does anyone know why the turf on the field is coming up in clumps? (At least there will be two weeks off for the field before the next home games.)

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Re: USC game

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:33 am

OOh- OOh- I Know!

1) Yes -- I do. Two players can be given an assist if both plays lead directly to the goal. This qualified. Ask yourself this- if Charney had scored, should Ellie have gotten the assist? and - If Charney's play was an assist, why doesn't Ellie's play qualify?

2) The field is suffering from a syndrome that all fields in the NorthWest eventually succumb to. Most fields are planted with a combination of Rye grass and sometimes some Bluegrass. Both of these have deep root structures that resist being torn up and provide the lush playing surface we used to brag about. Over time, this planting is overrun by windblown invasive seeds (think lawns across the street maintained by students). These invariably have much shorter root structures that exhibit the sort of balding you have observed.

There is a solution. All you have to do is scrape off all the living layer of the field, rebuild the sterile sand base, level it with laser instruments for the perfect surface, redo the irrigation system, and replant with certified weed-free seed. That's good for another 10 years or so, and the cycle starts over. The cost is about $30-$50K. I think a replanting happened maybe 10 or 12 years ago.

Add weekly and annual maintenance, and a grass field is more expensive than a Turf field over its life ($100K for Turf, life maybe 10 yrs). But it's oh, so sweet.

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Re: USC game

Post by KFTC on Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:22 am

Portland, I've noticed, is loathe to use the "double-assist" system, probably because [RANT ON] it is a stupid stat, no one in the professional and international game uses it (have you ever seen it used in the NBA, either?), and my favorite, Notre Dame shamelessly abused that stat for years. And years. And years. And the Portland SID's didn't want to fabricate stats for the players like Notre Dame did. Why did Holly Manthei, Cindy Daws, et al., rack up assists? Go look at the ND box scores from the 90's and see how many double assists they, and many other players have because it borders on the level between ridiculous and just plain outrageous...double-assists count just as much in season and career scoring records as a single assist (2 points for a goal, 1 for an assist). ND would give assists to the person who got fouled on a free kick for setting up the scoring opportunity. In this case, Charney's shot ricocheted off the post giving Sophie the opportunity to score; Ellie was out of the play at that point, so if you want to give double-assist, then give it to the post. It was correctly scored. I don't think I've ever seen a Portland box score with a double assist on it; if you ever find one, my guess is it might have happened maybe two or three games in a row because a scorer tried to sneak it in, and then Clive put the kibosh on it because it's a stupid method to pad a player's statistics. I mean, do you honestly think Holly Manthei was a better distributor of the ball than Justi Baumgardt? Or that Anne Makinen passed the ball and set up more scoring opportunities than Erin Misaki? Yet, there were many seasons where Manthei and Makinen were ahead in points because of all their "assists;" I don't think being the person who won the corner kick that resulted in a goal should be awarded an assist. [RANT OFF]
Sorry, that's a bit of a touchy subject. Don't really know why...I just think it's kind of dumb, that's all. Probably because of a well-rooted soccer bitterness toward Notre Dame. But that's just me, maybe. Smile

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Raw nerve?

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:58 am

Anybody have an extra anti-anxiety pill they can spare for KFTC?

I'd give her one of mine, but I'm hoarding in case I need them for the playoffs..... Smile

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Re: USC game

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:46 am

Thanks, Geez, for the great explanation about why the field is coming up in clumps.

Thanks also, KFTC, for the point about assists. Makes sense to me, as a way to avoid abuse.

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Re: USC game

Post by Stonehouse on Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:54 am

I can actually chime in a bit on the double-assist scoring at UP. KFTC is 100% right about how it is/was abused by Notre Dame. I think they had 10+ years in a row where they had nearly twice as many assists as goals. Pretty rediculous. I think one season Kerri Henks alone had more assists than the entire team had goals.

I generally the only time UP gives a double-assist is when one player does the heavy lifting creating a play, it gets one-timed by another player, and then is scored. Definitely has to be a bang-bang type of thing. To give a double-assist on Sophie's goal (though admittedly enough, I didn't see it) would be overly generous. Burk created the scoring opportunity when she took the shot. Elli's pass didn't really have anything to do with Sophie's shot. I mean, it did, but you know what I mean. As KFTC said, that would be like giving the rebounder an assist in basketball, since the team couldn't have eventually scored without that rebound.

So yeah... you'll see it occasionally, but only in very clear, very specific bang-bang type plays.

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Re: USC game

Post by UPSoccerFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:39 am

This actually was a play where I think you could give an assist based on your criterion -- in other words, it was a single play -- bang, bang, bang. If Charney had headed a pass to Sophie and Sophie then put it in, then Elli definitely would have qualified for an assist under your criterion. However, instead Charney took a shot that rebounded to Sophie who put it in. I can see saying "play over and new play started" when Charney took her shot. On the other hand, I still say it was a single play. So, unless the Pilots follow an absolute rule about only one assist per goal, I think Elli should have had one. And, on checking last year's home games, I see that in the Portland State the scorekeeper gave two assists on the last goal. So, the scorekeeper presumably followed the "play over and new play started" logic. I can live with that.


Last edited by UPSoccerFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:45 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: USC game

Post by Stonehouse on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:43 am

Fair enough. Like I said, I didn't see it.

But my guess is that Burk taking the shot is what eliminated Elli's "role" in the play.

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Re: USC game

Post by aleppiek on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:50 am

Yeah, I agree with Stoney, Burk's shot in my opinion started a "new play"

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Re: USC game

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:08 pm

aleppiek wrote:Yeah, I agree with Stoney, Burk's shot in my opinion started a "new play"

Not according to the rulebook on how it's scored.


10.5 Assists
An assist is awarded for a pass leading directly to a goal. Not more than two
assists may be credited on any one scoring play. Players receiving assists are
credited with one point for statistical purposes.
10.5.1 If a scoring play consists of two consecutive passes without a defender
gaining control of the ball, two assists may be awarded, provided the second
player does not have to elude a defender to make the final pass. Both passes
must have a direct influence on the outcome of a goal scored. If the second
player needs to elude a defender before passing to the goal-scorer, credit only
that assist.
10.5.2 No assist is awarded when a player gains control from the defensive team
and scores.
10.5.3 No assist is awarded on a penalty-kick goal.
10.5.4 A corner kick, throw-in or free kick leading to a goal each counts as a pass
in awarding assists.
10.5.5 A player cannot receive credit for an assist on a goal that the player also
scores.
10.5.6 If an attacking player’s shot hits a post or crossbar and bounces back into the
field of play and, before a defender can touch the ball, another attacker shoots
the ball into the goal, credit the player whose shot hit the post or crossbar with
an assist.
10.5.7 If an attacking player shoots and the goalkeeper or defender blocks the
shot but cannot control the ball, and a second attacking player immediately
knocks the rebound in for a goal, credit the player who took the first shot with
an assist.
Note: Rule 10.5 is an administrative rule and may be altered by prior written
mutual consent.

So- if Charney's shot hit the post, went to Sophie, and she put it in, there is no option BUT to give Charney an assist. It says "credit", not "may credit" .
Charney's is definitely an assist, whether it hit the post or another defender, or the keeper.



I defer to KFTC's abuse rule on Ellie's. :D


Last edited by Purplegeezer on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: USC game

Post by Stonehouse on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:22 pm

Oh yeah... Charney's shot definitely is an assist. No debate on that. What I think aleppiek meant was that Charney's shot wiped away Elli's ability to get an assist awarded on the play.

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Re: USC game

Post by Geezaldinho on Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:28 pm

Yeah, that seems clear from 10.5.6 and 10.5.7

Charney's shot wiped out the consecutive pass thing in 10.5.1


Last edited by Purplegeezer on Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: USC game

Post by aleppiek on Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:13 pm

Stoney, thanks for the clarification... Indeed that is what I meant the shot by Charney off the post broke the string needed to credit Ellie with the assist regardless how much she deserved it.

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Re: USC game

Post by Auto Pilot on Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:35 pm

I am not convinced that Charney's shot must be ruled a shot I think the most important fact here is whether she had to evade a defender before she passed/shot the ball into the post. She might just be a good pool player and used the far post to get it to Sophie.

Of course the above argument is a little ridiculous because we assume she was intending to shoot not pass. However, I do not see any language about intent. Hence the official rules leave this open to potential interpretation and potential abuse by those who would seek to inflate player performance/points with undeserved assists.

Also consider whether Charney was eluding the goalkeeper when her shot/pass was made which I think she was as the keeper was diving toward her and the near post as she shot which may have forced her to shoot/pass wide into the post. In this case 10.5.1 controls and only Charney is eligble for the assist and not Ellie.

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